All  

Welcome to the Ancient-Origins.net Forums. In order to avoid spam messages, we require all users of the forum to register first.

If you are not registered please click on the Register link from the top menu. If you are registered LOGIN here.

25 posts / 0 new
Last post
Zoroaster Created Judeo Christian Religions
     

 

   

Just another human

http://conspiro.net/

No one wanted to talk about

No one wanted to talk about Zoroaster and Aberhamic religions? Damn! Maybe you should write an artical about it and get it put on the front page. That would stir people up. Well, it would stir them up but I dont think that they would believe you. For as much as this site talks about religion, by the comments on many articles, it sounds as if the majority of the people here are judo-christians. Or that the majority just supports the Judo-Christians. 

 

--Still learning--

Absolutely True

All of the Abrahamic religions were started from within Zoroastrianism, however, that is not where that whole thing began either. Zoroaster was the last prophet in a line of prophets reportedly coming from 12,000 BCE, the first of whom was named Mahabad and according to one Kurdish researcher (to whom this version of history that I speak of, was taught orally from birth from that time period up until today to all children, author is Hamma Mirwaisi who has several books on Amazon.com on this subject). He claims as I recall that Mahabad brought teachings that eventually became Mithraism, and that further developed over time to become Zoroastrianism, Zoroaster (actually named Zarathustra) who was the 27th (as I recall being told) prophet in a direct line from Mahabad (for whom the Iranian city is named) and he goes further tyo say that this line of prophets taught the exact same religion throughout the centuries, as well as the fact that Aryan was a religion and NOT a race though these people were definitely Caucasian. This is an area where he differs from commonly accepted history that states that the Aryans (race) came from the Russian steppes around 4000 years ago. Mirwaisi uses Gobekli Tepe in Turkey which has been determined to be at leas 12,000 years old as a partial basis for his date for Mahabad's life. The point is that this spirituality had existed among the Aryans long before they invaded India ( a thing that is highly controversial and is not accepted as fact by all ) although they obviously were there as are their kurgans. Arkaim seems to be dated around 400 years ago and is claimed to have been the capital city of the Aryans/Scythians/Siberians. These folk populated the Iranian plateau and at this point are often warred against throughout the Middle East. They were the same peoples that inhabited Persia where the city of Babylon was. Babylon conquered Jerusalem and took many Hebrews east with them as slaves where they existed for many generations until they were influenced by the Zoroastrian religion and not a little by the fact that the Persians would offer them rewards for adopting aspects of their way of belief. One thing that is fact about the Persians in general was that much like Hinduism, when they conquered a new area with a differing spiritual belief they tended to bring the new localized religions under the umbrella of their own finding this a better way to treat a conquered population and one that caused those groups to tend towards assimilation into their culture. That alone works as evidence to support that at the very least, Judaism was greatly influenced by its interaction with Babylon (who at the time were a different kingdom from Persia, and I make this point because previously I had said Persian meaning the entire overall culture). As the Bible states, the Persian army conquered the Babylonians and freed the Jews allowing them to go back to Jerusalem. All of that is fine and good, but is it a complete history? Not necessarily. There are many similarities in the story of Abraham, supposedly from Ur, and his wife Sarah. Some claim that he was from India in the first place and that he was the story from which their name for God, Brahm originates. It IS interesting that Brahm's wife is named Saraswati. It is a well known fact that Hinduism is the world's oldest religion, and also that it is a collection of previous separate religions that were eventually codified into a single path that had room for all regardless of any cultural or linguistic differences. Some claim that Rome was actually an ancient Indian city and that the Vatican is the shape of a Siva Lingum. It IS known that the city of Jericho has been occupied continually for at least 10,000 years. Gobekli Tepe dates to at least 12,000 years. Several years ago the ancient city of Dwarka, the city of Krishna was located off of the coast from its present day location. There is also a second city under the sea. Divers went under to inspect it and search for artifacts and many were brought back and carbon dated, conservatively aged at 7500 years old, which does not reach the general 10,000 year mark, but which DOES predate Sumerian civilization (yet another group of Aryans, or Medes, or Kurds) who happened to have built Ur. Some researchers using this newer information about ancient Dwarka used a computer to turn back time and tide to find the general date for when this ancient Dwarka would have been on the coast, and that date was between 12,500 and 15,000 years. While not complete proof that that IS how and when things happened, with the information we have concerning the end of the last Ice Age, it does indicate that civilizations existed in India quite a while before Gobekli Tepe was created. Who knows? It COULD be true, despite many Judaeo-Christians being unwilling to accept the suggestion. Archaeological evidence shows that the Hebrews were simply Canaanites that decided to adopt a new system of belief and then conquered their countrymen, no matter what any ancient texts might say on the matter. The Hebrews also believed that they were the world's first civilization, a thing now distinctly proven to be untrue, as is the enslavement in Egypt of the Hebrews. They were hired and paid workers that decided for whatever reason to steal from the Egyptians and head out across the desert. Everyone CAN believe whatever they want to, but the archaeology doesn't lie.

TRUTH

I love what you wrote, great information but the last line about archeology doesnt lie. It is a tricky comment in that lieing is relative, and so much archeology is hidden under sea water what we know as truth today may be disproved later and it is the interpretation of what truths we have at the given time that make a lie to some folks evaluation at that point in time when viewed in retrospect. archeology is now mixed with paleontology and forensic sciences to help muddy the waters in the search for origins and truths . I realize you were making a closing statement but I jst wanted to add my first 2¢.thank you very much for your intelligent and informational post and I do  not mean to criticize at all, just a start point for my post.

john

john

Point Taken

And I do not disagree. The interpretations of archaeology ARE very subjective and this is why we get such drastically different interpretations from various archaeologists, and many times these depend on the beliefs of that person. A Christian pastor who is also an archaeologist will tend to interpret things that support the Biblical stories while another might interpret those in a very different way. I was specifically speaking about things that seem to show that first of all, the Hebrews were likely Canaanites (regardless of what time period they might have arrived there, whether from India or any other area of Asia) and that iof this was the case, it directly speaks against the Biblical account of how things happened. The same is found with the story of the Hebrews "slavery” in Egypt because the archaeology suggests that they were paid laborers that were housed and fed there, and that may have stolenitems from the Egyptians when they set out behind Moses into the desert. These are obviously merely 2 small incidences among a great many that show a different story than the Biblical account when taken as being a historical document, a thing I believe to be a not very honest way of looking at it because so much of it was appropriated from previous cultures stories. In any case, thank you for pointing that truth out about archaeological evidences. I will call that my bad, I should have oerhaops stated things in a better way! 

ok

I am must add that I had not intended to diminish anything at all about your great insightful comments, just found a point i could expostulate on in terms of an addition. Your contrition is well noted but entirely unnecessary as it certainly has merit and can be simply a matter of interpretation of sorts.I have only just started to take a look at India and its origins with religions and languages and civilizations since, or before the ice age. I went to grade school many many decades ago and I never believed what was in the text books as all there was only went back 5 or 7thousand years. So, am and have been extremely interested in all the current material being made available through the internet where I came across some  Max Planck institute papers which got me started, I think, about 10yrs ago maybe . Again , thank you for your information provided in the posts

john

john

No Problem

I took no offense to anything you said and do tend to agree with you on it. I am glad if you found anything I said useful to you. I read quite a lot and tend to distill the things I come across into my version or personal interpretation of the histories of cultures. I find India to be extremely interesting because they consider themselves to be the oldest civilization on the planet, and I cannot say that that is true or isn’t true, but they DO have a great deal of interestiung things to say, despite much of that coming from what the West calls Hindu Mythology. Over time as new things are found, those mythologies are not always so easy to write off as just stories. Much of that is due to what is found beneath the waters such as Dwarka, the city of Krishna that was found under the ocean and had artifacts that were dated conservatively to 7500 years old.Others have dated them to considerably older times and that is of course the subject of much debate because 12,500 years ago is previous to accepted history, BUT, now that Gobekli Tepe has the accepted age of 12,000 years old, that begins to push back the walls of what is considered possible. I saw an interesting show about the opriginal Dwarka where they had found that the last time that spot had been above water was before the Ice Age ended, which obviously provides the reason that the waters rose. There is a great deal of very interesting stuff being found. I hope that it continues to be found because I very much enjoyfindings that stretch one's ability to accept as being possible, especially anytime that corroberation can be found. As far as what you have said and/or added to my comments, no harm, no foul! It is all good!

Gobekli Tepe

You have just expressed the exact same interests I happen to have on these subjects-and all are brand new since I just found out about them.I had learned about some Hindu claims of being the oldest religion and may be accurate based on some of the Brahmin papyrus text translations as being unchanged from the beginnings or very early on and the language being that old or things like that. It stimulated my interests nonetheless. How can people not take note? rather than being called rewriting history ,as is best left to describe the deliberate exclusions to marginalize contributions of conquored or minority peoples ,but to be the constant ability to allow for the expansion of our knowlege of the whole field that is in search for our beginnings. Of course , there are many who may ask of what benefit this can be to us today with all the other insanities that occur daily. Interestingly however, is that so much of the troubles are replications of conflilcts  that have been ongoing over thousands of years and much can be learned by a better understanding of all humans as a species in terms of similarities rather than magnify the differences and to what makes those differences so important that killing off others based solely on some fairly minor differences so critical that is should ,and does continue over millenia. It is fascinating to be around to see how dna can trace just about everyone back to one spot and that being Africa, at least for now and that the original inhabitants of what is now asia and europe may have been the sister group of what have been called Neanderthal or Denosivan and that they were assimilated into who and what we are today. It is exciting to read about and I am old enough to have plenty of free time and access to the internet to find links to as much information as there is available.  If I were working and supporting a family I probably wouldnt have time for this as its priority would fall down the list of importance. But there should be plenty of digest format information available for people so it can be put into the school systems for kids to learn about things in a more accurate and well rounded manner than when I was there and the history we had was certainly deliberately exclusionary and new thinking was ridiculed and dismissed or worse demeaned and the writer ostracized . I should have known there would be like minded folks around the ancient origins pages., I only just realized there was a forum attached, albeit very hard to access at first with the protections against spam or hackers to contend with.

not to beat the dead horse, but thanks for the interesting post about the zoroaster religion ,it put me back onto it after a month away .

john 

john

Zoroastrinaism

I am not sure whether or not you were aware of this, but there is one older gentleman who has written several books about some of those groups of Persians that became Zoroastrians. He is a Kurd, who are the same as the Medes and the Aryans. Whites. He also is originally from India and has written extensively on the oral folk tales passed on from generation to generation among the Kurdish groups in the Middle East. As he tells it, Zarathustra was the last in a line of prophets, the first of whom was Mahabad (now a city in Iran). His name is Hamma Mairwasi and his books can be found easily enough on Amazon/Kindle. Some of his work has a lack of proper usage of American English as can be seen when reading it, but that is a minor detail when compared to the history his people give. I found that interesting to say the least, especially because they are one of the groups that receive the most prejudicial actions by rulers of countries there. That racial element also brings up one that is happening in India concerning history. In the past much was considered to have been the product of the Aryan invasion of India, whereby they set up the caste system that places them at the top. Now whether an Aryan invasion even happened or had such a drastic effect on the culture is hotly debated and obviously has two strongly opposing sides, and I choose to stay out of that debate but I DO read anything I can on the subject regardless of which side has written it or which sides veiws are being shown. I just thought I would mention this author and his subject matter because it might be interesting to know a bit more about what is taught from birth to those in that racial group about their culture and spiritual beliefs. He has stated many times that Aryan was actually the name of the religion and not a racial group, and also that it has remained the same religion despite changes in some of the names used from Mahabad (who he says lived 12,000 years ago) to Zarathustra. He also says much about Gobekli Tepe in his books. If interested search his name on Amazon to get more information.

window.post_1490460432286_13 = function(win,msg){ win.postMessage(msg,"*"); }window.post_1490460443299_34 = function(win,msg){ win.postMessage(msg,"*"); }
AIT

Ok, there is no archaeological evidence of an Aryan Invasion . The idea comes from a mistranselation done in the early 1900 , where the word “race” was used as a description . The neonazi was quick to pick up this idea of a noble race….the rest should be well known history...I wouldn’t use the word religion , but more an ancient teachings that stretch many thousands of years back in time . It is possible to date the Vedas by using astronomy , and these dates back way older than Gobekli Tepe . Some of the carvings and symbols at Gobekli , can only be understood if you interpret them how the Rig Vedas are describing different astronomical events . A turtle standing between to figuers , symbolize the slow mowing moon after an eclipse in the sign of gemini and so on….So what is said to be discovered by seers a long time ago , are kept for us in India , that which made all the high civilizations to flourish . There is  one statue with a smashed face, though it is not needed, whith a distinct zig-zag pony – tail. A hairstyle that is still used by the Vedic priests today . In mythology this symbolize the Kundalini snakes twining up your spine, up your neck and over your head for then opening the third eye , the pineal gland . Take a look at the egyptians, they had no word for religion themselfes . Yet their mythology screams in face of the egyptologists . The faraoes with a cobra in the forehead and the falcon god Horus the six single hieroglyphs for our five senses plus the mind, the Egyptians looked upon our thoughts as a sense, together they become the well-known hieroglyph of the horus eye. Odin sacrifice one of his eyes to drink from the well of mimirs . Where all knowledge was kept….it symbolize the opening of the third eye . It’s everywhere .  There is only one mythology here at earth , you just see it in different facets or colors . The big question is , where this tradition King of kings originated from . It might come out of Gobekli Tepe , and it probably does….All the death gods have similarities, bringer of civilisation, agriculture, written language , advanced mathematics...to understand Odin and perhaps everyone as shamans as the oldest known rituals , stilled preformed by the siberian shamans and possible all over the world at that time, is a les developt ritual , based on opening the third eye, either with use of mushroom or plants containing Dmt as ayahuasca or by sitting in completely darknes for 300 hours, should have the same affect , opening of the third eye . And shouldn’t be that strange , since this is the place that produces dmt in our body . This is the same place as hunter and gatherers called the world of the dead or spirits if you want...omg I digress…what I mean is, what is still thaught from the smallest to university in curriculum  derives from a “mistranslation” from a colonial rule at that time ...don’t blame this on those being supressed . We should be extremly grateful for what is kept there for all humanity .

Agreed

I have been studying all that you mentioned here, and there are connections to be found throughout, from the earliest forms of “shamanism” (an Evenki word, those Siberian shamans) that have similarities and apparent connections around the globe. It is my belief at this time that “shamanism” is where all religion truly began and developed from although this was happening simultaneously in many areas of the globe. It is now even believed that Neanderthals might have had some form of religion and even burial rituals going on, though it is hard to prove that true without any living example available to be asked.

The connections with Egypt and all regarding the spine, kundalini, and not only the pineal gland, but also its working in combination with the pituitary and hypthalamus glands to be what is called the third eye. DMT and variuous plant psychedelics notwithstanding all played apart in the development of religious culture and habit over time. I find the entire story interesting as a whole and agree with your statements and even your digression.

I also do not necessarily believe that the Aryans necessarily invaded India, which had Sanatana Dharma already before any of them made it there (and some obviously did) but I do not see it as being a thing of their creation though they may have influenced it at one point by placing themselcves into the highest possible caste. The Dravidians and Tamils already had much of what later came to be known collectively as Hinduism, it wasn’t created by the Aryans, though people continually debate all sides of that to this very day.

Kurds and Aryans

Thank you very much.  I read abstracts on the web and may have seen this man interviewed in a bit of  National Geo or Discovery channel documentary, somewhere. cant place his name Hamma Mairwasi, now I know it. I had only known the bare basics of what you are saying but could not go farther in the issue. It had definitely caught my attention for just the reasons you pointed out. I think the show on whatever channel got me going. just cant recall since I do no   any commercial television at all and usually only pbs. thanks for the update with amazon reference forgot about that completely. i also get an email ebook on line via book bub or some name like that for discounted books on kindle or other electronic books. big discounts on the ones when they are available .in all categories too. I get way too many of those email alerts however and come to discount them when they come it, but it is a fairly good on linebook resource.       

took way too many words to just say thanks for this info, just what i was referring to in my post as it happens and i agree that all sides of issues should be read in all matters particularly when I have a specific opinion on a subject. in these matters  i do not so all info is greatly appreciated.

john

john

Absolutely correct

I know Hamma Mairwasi and have spoken to him at length about the oral histories of the Aryans/Medes/Kurds and to be perfectly honest, he is where I gained a percentage of my understanding of the overall topic. I have read a few of his books too.  I recommend checking them out if you are of a mind to explore further. He is a good guy.

It is easily seen that

It is easily seen that Zoroastrianism did influence Judaism and since Christianity uses what is now known as the Old Testament they were influenced also. the Persians  instead of calling the planet Saturn or Set, They called the planet Satan, and personified the planet as though it were a person. The Persians were the first to invent the personification of that which was called Satan. So that is where the Christians got their Satan from.

Zoraster=Jews=Christianity=Islam=Same

@Shabda:  Enjoyed your summary. Thanks.  If you haven’t forgotten Plato’s Timaeus and others: check it out.  Pretty Cool.

 

Thanks

I am glad that you got something out of itand am pleased if any of it had value to you. I know well of Plato too! The Greeks were PIE people too, originally from India, so it is somewhat easily seen how influences from earlier centuries were carried forward into his writings. Great point!

Timaeus

I’m not sure that it is in fact in Timaeus that I was referring to.  It is the recountng of the story told by  the Egyptian priest Solon perhaps to Socrates in a dialogue about the history of the previous 10000 as speculated by Plato.  I thought this fascinating.   Anyway, for what is worth. Jeff

I'm a little sceptical

I have already heard the thesis that Zarathustra was at the origin of monotheism, but this theory seems far-fetched, doesn't it?

May Seem Far-Fetched, But

No more far fetched than the Hebrew claim that they were the first civilization. Also, I’m not sure it can be said that Zarathustra started monotheism because of his having been preceded by numerous other prophets, claimed by some to have been the same line. For this reason I  attribute monotheism to have been created by Mahabad. 

Obviously the idea is controversial in that it is not widely accepted, but Judaism also could not have been without influences from other traditions from other areas. Some consider monotheism to have begun in Egypt under the heretic pharaoh Akhenaten, who was reputed by some as having changed that nation’s religion to worshipping one sky god.

I appreciate your being skeptical, but in the end it is an unknown, because no archaeological evidence has ever been found to support it. I am equally skeptical however of Judaism’s claim of being the source of monotheism.

Zoroaster created judeo christian religions

And all these ideas/theorys /lanuguages from different nations is just why the Holy spirit creater of heaven and earth rename mans temple of Babel to the temple of Babble . to many silly ideas when the awnswer is right in the worlds oldeswt yest still being recorded life story 

no

‘Babel’ was the name the Hebrews gave to what they deemed a tower of confusion many years after the fact. The original name was Bab-Ilu, which meant ‘god door’.

That video didn't really

That video didn't really impress me much. Granted, ancient history is pretty murky, but if you're going to say Moses never existed and it was all made up by Ezra or Cyrus, why stop there? Maybe Zoroaster was just made up. Maybe the entire mythology is just a story.

I think the Abrahamic religions were created by Abraham. He was not the first since he appeared to derive his beliefs from his teacher Melchizedek. His beliefs were different than Judaism as he was justified by faith not animal sacrifices,

Sure But

First, I am not claiming a video necessarily expresses the true history more than just explores the idea of there having been a connection, and neither can I prove that Zarathustra did or did not exist, BUT, that sill doesn’t address many other factors that already existed within this “story” or idea, primarily that a religion already existed for thousands of years before Zarathustra was even born or did anything and his having been the last in a line of prophets in Persia. That means thatg even just within a fictional mythology, he was a latecomer to a spiritual belief system that had already existed for a length of time and that did not begin with him by any means.

So, even if one sees it as being not factual, that still doesn’t begin to address the beginnings of the actual story or mythology, much less address how much of said story was actually true or based on facts as they were known to the people of the time.

I cannot claim my interpretations to be correct historically speaking, but I also cannot prove them to be a myth. The same conundrum exists for both views, neither of which can prove itself to be the case.

hmm

Who says Abraham was taught by Melchizedek? Some apocryphal book? He only met and was honored by Melchizedek, but Abram was contacted and guided directly by God.