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Bible origins

The Old Testament was based on the Torah, which is generally accepted to be derived from the true history of the Semitic peoples. The Sumerians were one of the Semitic races, and their Epic of Gilgamesh is thought to be a direct antecedent of the Torah. The Epic is about a thousand years older (in written form - it almost certainly goes back even further as an oral tradition), and has many striking points of similarity with the OT.

Here are some of the salient points of two stories from the Epic - see if they remind you of anything!

The Flood

"Utnapishtim spoke to Gilgamesh, saying: 'I will reveal to you, Gilgamesh, a thing which is hidden, a secret of the gods. I will tell you Shurrupak, a city that you surely know, situated on the banks of the Euphrates, that city was very old, and there were gods inside it. The hearts of the great gods moved them to inflict the flood."
(Tablet XI, 9-14)

"O man of Shurrupak, son of Ubartutu, tear down the house and build a boat! The boat which you are to build, its dimensions must measure equal to each other: its length must correspond to its width. Roof it over like the Apsu."
(Tablet XI, 24 & 28-30)

"All the living beings that I had I loaded on it, I had all my kith and kin go up into the boat, all the beasts and animals of the field . . ."
(Tablet XI, 84-85)

"When a seventh day arrived I sent forth a dove and released it. The dove went off, but came back to me; no perch was visible so it circled back to me. I sent forth a swallow and released it. The swallow went off, but came back to me; no perch was visible so it circled back to me. I sent forth a raven and released it. The raven went off, and saw the waters slither back. It eats, it scratches, it bobs, but does not circle back to me."
(Tablet XI, 145-154)

* * * * *

The Tree of Life

I'll summarise this one, cos it's a bit long-winded!

(From Tablet XI, 285-289)
Gilgamesh is told of a 'magic plant' called 'the old man becomes a young man'. Anyone who partakes of its fruit becomes immortal. Gilgamesh is cheated of immortality by 'a serpent' who steals the plant while he is bathing.

* * * * *

There are other points of similarity. For instance, the story of Gilgamesh and Shamhat has parallels with the story of Samson and Delilah.

Gilgamesh was a real historical figure, the fifth king of the first dynasty of Uruk, who reigned at about 2,500BC. He was deified in the histories of the Sumerian people, who described him as the son of the demigod Lugalbanda and the goddess Ninsun (which would make him 75% divine).

So: to regard the Bible as literally true in every detail is to ignore the historical facts - that the Bible evolved from stories which date back to (historians estimate) nearly 4,000BC. It continues to evolve, from the major revisions of the Septuagint version of the New Testament (250AD) by the Roman emperor Constantine in 331AD, to the seven main subsequent versions:
Vulgate (400AD)
Lutheran (1534AD)
King James (1611AD)
Youngs Literal (1898AD)
Revised Standard (1952AD)
New International (1960s-1970s)

There has also been more recent modernising of the Bible's language, so that there are now more versions of the Bible than you can shake a bishop's crozier at! Who decides which is the 'true' version?

 

good summary

Nice content.  The problem I have with the bible is not only the many and varied versions, but the lack of proofreading in which each new chapter often contradicts the previous.

But it is also widely suspected that it was King Josiah who actually ‘wrote’ the boook of the law. Around 750BC, during a renovation of the temple. King Josiah miraculously ‘found’ the book of the law which had been supposedly hidden there. He immediately banned all other forms of worship (apparently there were many including phallic) and installed Yahwehism in their stead.

It is rather likely he invented the history, as there is no verifiable historical account of any Moses, any captivity in Egypt (Egyptians were meticulous record keepers), no evidence of any wandering in the desert in those places mentioned and thus we have no promised land.

The book “The BIble Unearthed” lays to rest the historicity of the current OT concluding that it was a people inventing a history for themselves where there was none. Archaeology simply doesn't support the claims according tho the times given. There were no walls around Jericho at the time claimed, as it was an Egyptian vassal, etc.

Borrowing from existing creationo accounts is the more likely scenario. The Epic of Gilamesh is one, but also the ancient Indian account of a flood, in which a man (with 3 sons) survived in a boat is another. The names of those sons curiously reflect the later copying by the writers of the OT.

I think it’s high time the OT be relegated to the trash bin of literature, or at the very least placed on the shelf with it’s companions, Peter Rabbot and Snow White. Yahwehism has come to symbolize some of the most despicable acts of inhumanity. The notion that an invented ‘god’ favors one people over all of its other creations is a primitive one at best, and a dangerous one at least.

 

 
Not so fast

Meh. The Egyptians were meticulous record keepers as long as the events being recorded were favorable to the Pharaohs. They weren't too keen on keeping records of their failures or defeats, and they weren't above a bit of "historical revision" if it suited them. See how they tried to "erase" anything associated with Akhenaten's reign from history, for example.

"Moses" is probably a derivative of an Egyptian name/title(the Pharaoh Tuthmosis, for example), it isn't the man's actual name. Also, since he was supposed to be a Hebrew that was raised in the Egyptian court, he more than likely had both a Hebrew name as well as an Egyptian name. "Moses" might simply be a shortened version of his Egyptian name; a nickname, or alias of a sort.

As for the rest of the story...the various plagues, the flight to the Red Sea, etc...take a look at the Papyrus Ipuwer. Also the inscription of Queen Hatshepsut at Speos Artemidos. And there is a black granite shrine at el-Arish on the border of Egypt with a hieroglyphic inscription that is very interesting.

Tsurugi:

The Egyptians were quite heavily influenced by the Semitic cultures. Egyptian culture dates back to about 3150 BC, whereas the earliest known Semitic culture, the Ubaidians, dates back to around 6500 BC.

"Hurry else Death may spy us here, and quicken the pulse of dawn . . ."

"The Egyptians were quite

"The Egyptians were quite heavily influenced by the Semitic cultures.”

Considering the fact that one-third (fourth?) of the world is descended from Shem -- including the Christ and the civilization that's arisen from His teachings -- I'd say that everyone's been influenced.

Good comments

[Post superceded by the newer one.]

Good post

Good comments.

Moses records that his adoptive mother (Pharaoh’s daughter) named him Moses because “I drew him out of the water.”

Regarding the pharaohs’ selective editing, it’s interesting to note that one of them experimented with monotheism for awhile.

What might have inspired that?

Moses' Hebrew name?

Moses (Hebrew Moshe) is derived from a Hebrew word root meaning "to draw from." Why an Egyptian princess would know of Hebrew words and their root meanings is indeed a mystery. In Egyptian the word Mose means "son of." Apparently the author of the OT account of Mose's birth was NOT aware that Egyptian Mose did NOT mean "drawn from." If Moses was given an Egyptian name, then the Bible is not the word of God, for it erred in giving a Hebrew meaning to the name instead of an Egyptian meaning!

Walter R. Mattfeld

Words understood in many languages

That comment makes me think of the word babble. Not only is it understood in the English language, but it is specifically, stated, ‘therefore it’s name is babble’. Of course, it could have been adopted into the English language, especially since the Bible is so popular in America. I did find this reference online, although it doesn’t prove it’s origin. 

 Babel, modern-day Babylon, comes from Akkadian meaning 'gate of god' (the -el, Akkadian īl-, is cognate to the (-)el meaning 'god' in Hebrew, as in Michael or Elohim; bāb meaning gate is cognate to the prophet title, the Báb, in the Bahá'í faith).

Babble comes from a common Germanic root of the same meaning, which we see also in, inter alia, German babbeln, Dutch babbelen, and Swedish babbla (all of the same meaning as the English). But I can never get over the fact Babel is not only very close to Abel, but also bible. The tower of bable and the torah of bibel. It’s quite funny to me. Another one I laugh at is Lot. Lot’s pillar of salt was left in Sodom (southdom; the ocean floor). When the mist fell, it mixed with lots pillar of salt, and why we have oceans and seas today. 

https://www.reddit.com/r/etymology/comments/2v2sq7/is_the_word_babble_in_any_way_related_to_the/

 

damned2hell4ever

Osiris:

Thanks for reading and commenting, you raise some interesting points. There is one thing I feel I have to respond to : “The notion that an invented ‘god’ favors one people over all of its other creations is a primitive one at best, and a dangerous one at least.”

A Jewish friend of mine – a writer – told me that the idea that the Jews are ‘the chosen race’ has been misunderstood in a way that has often been used to justify antisemitism. The key theological point is what the Jews were supposed to have been chosen FOR: they were chosen to suffer in atonement for the sins of all Mankind. Admittedly, there is a kind of passive arrogance in that, but it’s a lot less arrogant than the more widespread interpretation makes it seem.

"Hurry else Death may spy us here, and quicken the pulse of dawn . . ."

Hebrews in the OT

"The key theological point is what the Jews were supposed to have been chosen FOR: they were chosen to suffer in atonement for the sins of all Mankind."

There’s a reason that’s not the common interpretation—it’s extremely inconsistent with the stories in the OT.  “God” (so the story goes) made a covenant with the Jews, and they only suffered, though spectacularly, when they disobeyed his commands.  Conversely, they wrought all manner of horrible destruction on other peoples when he was at their side.  I mean jeeze, he told them to go into the promised land and kill everything that breathes.  Is the behavior of modern-day Zionists in Palestine of any wonder?

 
horrible destruction

Have you read the koran?  Destruction, slaughter, enslaveing, raping-even children?

Witnessed by the whole world to this day by these ‘best of people’ repeating the actions of their prophet and as described in the koran.

What is you motivation here?

   
Not a tu quoque

There is a vast gulf between the God of Israel and Muhammad's allah: One died for the life of the world; the other demands the rape, enslavement, and slaughter of all who refuse the "invitation" to convert.

There is no comparison.

Comparison

Which one are you talking about in this, god or allah. Because I can’t tell. Actually it sounds like god and allah are fictional ‘snakes,serpents, etc’ made up to place the blame for all of their own sins. Jesus = serpent. I like to do word meanings and if letters have a real  and singular meaning. Here’s my attempt with Jesus. God was supposedly the father or creator. G is the first letter of gas but seemed to be too rigid a sound to coincide with the substance. J may have been an attempt to reconnect people with the old testament god but who would be the Holy Spirit. So g to J to H. The new testament may have been written by someone assuming the old testament was written in code (with all those lmade up fairy tales who wouldn’t) and so wrote the entire NT under pen names believing it was a prophecy that the true sons of god would become extinct and the apocalypse would begin. I believe the event took place very early in history. But Jesus represented the last generation of the children of god. He was called the son of God because he was the last and only generation (supposedly), but was not a real person. So G and J are closely related letters, J being softer and more like a real gas, god being more like a solid, gold for instance. The e in jesus may point to Eden where a very similar sacrifice took place. And so is the first s? Satan, serpent, both were blamed for mens sins when men were responsible. Now the serpent/snake’s head is bruised by man’s heel which is war carried out by almost all humanity. In other word’s it’s just getting the tip of the spear compared of all the blood being spilled. The serpent also represent humanity, a closer idea of how many people were created during creation with 200-400 ribs. So the snake replaced the serpent in the future, it’s head being bruised instead of the serpent. The serpent was actually Adam who thought the snake had been removed from him (salvation). But Adam didn’t know that there is no devil or angels and that the true god is a spirit and the only spirit and blasphemy is wanting to be god, to “be a spirit”. The serpent continued to represent humanity. Total amount of bones in one man-appx amount of nationalities today. So the serpent is mankind and they war. Funny how the Jews Pharisees, old testament believers, or far i see people because they couldn’t remember their own garden of eden story. God walked with them in the garden and spoke with them and made them skins when they left. sus could also represent seas on  both side of something blocking their view of all people. The u I don’t know but if J and soft letters represent gas, seas, ‘a’ letter would represent an idea, something non physical. The last letters ‘us’ may represent the followers of the Holy Spirit. But they are blasphemers.

damned2hell4ever

Someone needs to do his homework

“Which one are you talking about in this, god or allah. Because I can’t tell”

Says only the illiterate and the perverse.

Read even just one of the Gospels and Chapter 9 of Qur’an, then get back to us.

How dishonest

they wrought all manner of horrible destruction on other peoples when he was at their side.  I mean jeeze, he told them to go into the promised land and kill everything that breathes.  Is the behavior of modern-day Zionists in Palestine of any wonder?

You’re implying that the God of the Bible is a capricious monster who delights in slaughtering the innocent, which is absurd. The Conquest of Canaan was a dispossession, a Divine judgment for great sin (including child sacrifice). The Canaanites had several decades of advance notice of what was to come, as evidenced by the testimony of the Canaanite woman who told the Hebrew spies that the people of the land were terrified of them because of what their God had done to Egypt. Those who remained were to be killed.

Israel did not obey the command; later, when they had adopted the Canaanites’ depraved deities and began committing the same sins, they faced the same fate at the hands of the Babylonians: Leave, or be destroyed.

You’re also employing the language of jihad's apologists, which is disgraceful and depraved. Modern Israel seeks only to defend itself from those sworn to their destruction. Why do you want innocent people helpless in the face of Allah-mandated genocide?

the god of the bible

First, I created a video I want people to watch and give me their opinion.  https://youtu.be/sl6u7DK6Ny0    Second, the god of the bible and all religions is more sick than probably any of you know. Because they’re all made up. No one can know any god, and furthermore everyone to exist was damned without hope before they were born. It never ceases to amaze me how almost every person in every nation spews the same murderous garbage. Their god is the real god. Some other nation is the evil god. They are child murderers. We must eliminate them. The whole idea of being anti-pedophilia and a protector of the innocent is an excuse to cover up something much sicker. That all are damned, all death is the same, and much of the pain, suffering and death is happening because almost no one is trying hard enough to evade death. People all over the world claim their forgiven or can be by a god and live like it. It’s all a lie so people can attempt to annihalate every one else (including their own race) and claim it was of god. I’m half jewish, and I always like to tell this joke : People ask me why I think Hitler did what he did to the jews. I tell them, probably living next to them for too long. I hope you realize I don’t specifically hate the jews. You can tag someone as racist, but it’s just another word for a patriot. None really cares what color you are, most will stab you in the back the minute you’re not looking. I know what the world’s problems are, and they are far, far worse than most think. I study the bible, I know it well Let me tell you a tiny detail I know. And if you think it’s amazing, I find stuff like that all the time. All the geneologies of Genesis from Adam through Jacob add up to something. There is only one other person’s age mentioned after that, and it’s joseph. The sum I got was 23,999. And when I listed jacob, I left the first two columns blank. Since it doesn’t list a son and his age when he had him. Now I’ll tell you why that is. The words and numbers were at one time a chart a person(s) created of how our time is, the days, years and so on. I have A LOT of evidence to back that up. It was some type of chart comparing a year to 1,000 days. There are 24,000 hours in 1,000 days. I believe someone found the recordings later or they were passed down wrongly believed to be a geneology. As I said, there is only one name mentioned after jacob, his son joseph. The bible says, at the very end of genesis joseph told physicians to embalm his father. It says the embalming took 40 days, and then the egyptians mourned for him 70 days. That’s 110 days. Then at the end of the same chapter, gen 50, it says joseph died being 110 years old. And that’s not the strangest part. Joseph was the 11th son of jacob. 110, 110, 11.0             That was not a geneology, as I wrote earlier I have a lot of proof. I also have a lot of proof the bible and all religions are a lie. I have a lot of proof such as numbers names and so forth from the bible, but all religions are basically the same : a lie.

damned2hell4ever

They're all made up

It’s clear from your posts that you’re the one making things up.

Anti-semite?

“he told them to go into the promised land and kill everything that breathes.  Is the behavior of modern-day Zionists in Palestine of any wonder?”

How depraved.

The Conquest of Canaan was a Divine judgment for great evil that came after 40 years of advance warning. Ancient Israel itself faced the same fate centuries later for the same sins.

Israel today is the most decent and moral people on Earth. What do you think any Western (let alone Communist or Islamic) nation would do if it were constantly under attack by its neighbors?

Israel is only responding to the jihad waged against it, and they do so with remarkable restraint.

Rather than misrepresent the ancient Hebrews and today’s Israelis, why not tell the truth?

What does Moses say?

“The key theological point is what the Jews were supposed to have been chosen FOR: they were chosen to suffer in atonement for the sins of all Mankind.”

The ancient Hebrews were chosen to be the people from whom would come the Messiah. He suffered and died for the sins of the world.

God keeps His promises

“misunderstood in a way that has often been used to justify antisemitism. The key theological point is what the Jews were supposed to have been chosen FOR: they were chosen to suffer in atonement for the sins of all Mankind.”

Human error does not nullify God’s will.

And no sinner can atone for another. The Israelites were chosen to prepare for -- and give birth to – the Messiah promised to our first parents.

He is the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world!

The Messiah takes away the sin of the world?

Christianty claims that Jesus as the Messiah takes away the sin of the world with his atoning death. Most Jews would find this claim to be nonsense. WHY? Moses tells them that once a year, on a day called YOM KIPPUR, the nation will assemble and be forgiven ALL ITS SINS. That is to say EVERYONE is FORGIVEN THEIR SINS ONCE A YEAR, EVERY YEAR, FOR ETERNITY. So, there is no need for a Messiah to be born and die for one's sins. Sadly, most Christians are unaware of this fact. Leviticus 16:30 "...for on this day shall atonement be made for you, to cleanse you; from all your sins you shall be clean before the Lord...This shall be an everlasting statute for you, that atonement may be made for the people of Israel once in the year because of all their sins." Notice that this is an everlasting statute, it does not end with a Messiah's shed blood, as claimed by the New Testament's authors.

Walter R. Mattfeld

Whoever knows Moses and the Prophets knows the Messiah

If those animal sacrifices could really do away with sin, then why were they repeated daily/weekly/annually? Those sacrifices foreshadowed what the Messiah would accomplish for us all. That’s why John called Jesus, “The Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world!”

Jesus stated plainly that anyone who believes Moses and the Prophets believes Him, since they were talking about Him:

“to us a child is born, to us a son is given [...] and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace [...] on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and forevermore.”

“He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted.

But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed.

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.”

“My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? [...] I am a worm and not a man, scorned by mankind and despised by the people. All who see me mock me; they make mouths at me; they wag their heads; “He trusts in the Lord; let him deliver him; let him rescue him, for he delights in him!”

[...] Many bulls encompass me; strong bulls of Bashan surround me; they open wide their mouths at me, like a ravening and roaring lion. I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint; my heart is like wax; it is melted within my breast; my strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks to my jaws; you lay me in the dust of death.

For dogs encompass me; a company of evildoers encircles me; they have pierced my hands and feet—I can count all my bones—they stare and gloat over me; they divide my garments among them, and for my clothing they cast lots.”

Those passages are from neither the Apostles, the Church fathers, Sunday sermons, nor greeting cards. They’re Isaiah and King David, up to a millennium before Jesus died for the sins of the world.

YHWH has directed all of human history – and His Scriptures! – to point to the Son of God.

Listen to Him.

Covenant

I believe you are getting lost in the weeds. The old Covenant has been washed away by the new covenant.
Man has evolved and so has God. God is constantly growing as is Man.
Our old beliefs are good to hold onto but we must look at them with a new pair of glasses.
Example; the ban on eating pork due to parasites in the meat in the old days. We now know why it was banned and why we can eat it now.

Banned Pork

If god banned pork because of parasites, why in the h-ll didnt he ban all death. And if a god was all knowing, he wouldn't have to test people whether they loved him or not. And if he was all loving, he wouldn't have allowed those who 'choose him' to ever feel pain.

damned2hell4ever

Covenant

I believe you are getting lost in the weeds. The old Covenant has been washed away by the new covenant.
Man has evolved and so has God. God is constantly growing as is Man.
Our old beliefs are good to hold onto but we must look at them with a new pair of glasses.
Example; the ban on eating pork due to parasites in the meat in the old days. We now know why it was banned and why we can eat it now.

favors one people

does this bother you?

<i>  But the allah tells muslims in Koran 3:110:

 “Ye are the best of Peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah. If only the People of the Book had Faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have Faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors.”</i>

how about this, does this bother you?

<i>  However, this is exactly what God’s word tells us; salvation is only found in a relationship with Jesus Christ (Acts 4:12; John 14:6).   </i>

 

or do only Jews, and their made up God bother you?

 

Take a long look in your mirror

     
Reply to #2

Hi osiris, the mere fact there are different translations to the Bible as it stands in terms of what familiarity one may have as regarding ancient texts, some wll older in terms of the things sometimes described. It has been written that the Old Testament is based on the Torah, but perhaps it is the other way around just because without God that same people would be serving the Babylonian Harlot. Is is just one letter off? That is, between the word Torah, and as a reversed form written as ‘Harot’, there is only an ‘l’ missing to make it the other word.

Not all of the writings of what Jesus originally wrote could ever fit all the books of the world, just because God has accounted for having done an innumerable amount of instances, that how could a single book ever carry all of who is really God? Why today the world system is most confused as to how they will step away from all that will be delivered by way of what they have done.

The more they do, all the worse will be placed upon them. The Bible says there are a type of people who are chosen and they're not all good who follow him. Also those who do will suffer persecution. There is all sorts of proof as to what you are saying, but there is something also outside of all of that. It’s all disguised tell the exact same stories they all tried when they tried continuously cover what some may have known all along that great power would be felt inside of Egypt. They cannot get away from it.

Matthias is the Math of Ma’at. It’s also found in the story of Alexander the Great and the Books of Maccabees I & II as it describes what the aliens did to destroy most of Egypt. Those Gods they depict are mostly the true realism of it. There are no mistakes as to what they wrote. Even they could write. They’re the ones who wrote against the scribes. It was the pharisees who replaced the pharaohs when they destroyed Jesus.

He wrote those same Gospels. The Holy Spirit is who wrote. God is a spirit. He is the light. In him, there is no darkness a single time unless man wants it. Well since he so often sows to it, that is what it will be delivered as in terms of there are types or forms of supposed human life forms which must be made extinct. All they have done is lied about everything the word of God said as regarding the Sphinx. That is Judah's witness to the Lion’s Kingdom.

“The Gospel of the Holy Twelve” is considered to be the basis of the 4 Gospels written and added to the book called the bible, which is part-truth, not all of it is to just be accepted just 'as-is’ if it should happen to contradict the Ten Commandments. Though if it serves to enable money to present itself first as the most major contradiction to everything God is! Those giant edifices are what determined the borders. Man has filled the dirt up he walks upon with crosses.

The Akhenaten Revolution's very bad. Inside Bibles: Abydos is Seti's Temple so Abaddon; The Book of Revelation chapter nine.

The Great /\ of earth's foundation stones: the rising of the sun: Revelation 7 &amp; 14. The wolf is a dog o' tribe of Benjamin.

No, a lack of intellectual integrity

"the lack of proofreading in which each new chapter often contradicts the previous."

If you're referring to Genesis' Creation account, Moses isn't contradicting himself. Wouldn't he have noticed something so obvious? Wouldn't the millions of his fellow Hebrews who preserved his work as absolute fact have said, "Uh, Moses, we have a problem"?

A lack of reading comprehension on your part does not constitute a “lack of proofreading" on Moses’ part.

Cool

This Torah was written or rewritten by Moses. Moses might’ve erred in the lineages because towards the end of that commentary you find identical names, I’m guessing he didn’t know what was what or who came from where. Then you have Moses circling the entire Arabian peninsula probably because he was a little lost and had no real concept of direction. Then you have Aaronic priesthood taboo which was a little messy. It is tough growing up learning the Bible was the word of God and yet dealing with bemuddlements right away in Genesis.  It’s a tough battle, it has a kings list and genaeology to the first man but it’s hard to know if it’s true or an adopted embellishment. I pour and pour over anything like that i can get my hands on...

The old testament is a product of badly translated older writing

I know far more than most about the bible. I say that because I like to brag. But I've written so much I don't know where to start. You probably don't believe me, but I created a video you can watch to decide for yourself. I guarantee you'll learn far more from me about the bible than most of the people walking this earth. In a much shorter time. And I have a motive for telling you that I can't explain in a few words. Watch my videos and you'll see.
https://www.ancient-origins.net/comment/32122#comment-32122
I can tell you this. Moses was the torah of bible, the written word at one time. Aaron was the tower of bable. The spoken word at the time. Moses being slow of speech symbolized, first, the difficulty by people to decipher the writings. And also the miniscule amount. Aaron was able to speak well (bable). He was the spoken word, the errin of bable + the airin of bable. Babel comes from abel. I know the whole story of the bible, if you like the video and are interested you can read what I've written. It's easy reading, with a lot of pictures. And I have other videos on my site, check them all out. But I apologize, I was told on small screens the video appears blurry, so you'd be better viewing on a laptop.

damned2hell4ever

How to determine what is truth?

ScareBear wrote: "...its hard to know if its true or an adopted embellishment. I pour over anything I can get my hands on..." I would like to take this opportunity to invite Scarebear (and other viewers) to visit my website and study the articles posted there on the Bible. I have concluded the Bible is not true. The reasons why are presented, based on the research of others in the fields of archaeology, biblical textual criticism, and the sciences. www.bibleorigins.net I also have 70 videos on the Bible at You Tube on the internet under my channel name of Walter R. Mattfeld

Walter R. Mattfeld

It is tough growing up learning the Bible was the word of God...

Any bemuddlements are the fault of the reader, not the Author.

You don't understand the Biblical texts

“the bible is not only the many and varied versions”

Translations, not “versions.”

Regarding translations versus Versions of the Bible

Today the Bible exists in versions that contradict each other. Who's to say which version is the correct one and which one is inspired by Satan? The Massoretic Text is used by the Jews today and it is a different version from the Greek Septuaginta text of circa 275 BC. It is in the Septuaginta that Christians came up with the cockeyed notion that the Messiah was to be born of a virgin. The Jewish Massoretic text says a young woman (Hebrew alma) will give birth, not a virgin (Greek parthenos) will give birth. These two texts also contradict each other on the ages of the patriarchs in the book of Genesis. Why did the Jews reject Jesus as being the Messiah? The best answer to this question I found to be in the various YouTube Videos produced by Jewish scholars, who claim Jesus was rejected because he failed to fulfill the prophecies about the Messiah. The Jews also accuse the Christians of fabricating false prophecies about the Messiah, by taking statements out of context, ignoring what was said before and after, the "lifted" statement. The Jews in refuting Christian Apologists, claimed that the Christian scriptures were from a corrupt translation, the Greek-written Septuaginta. The Christian response was to deny the Septuaginta was a corrupt translation just because it disagreed with the Jewish texts. For some early Christian Apologists these differences were proofs that the Jews had later altered their sacred texts to make the Christian texts (based on the Septuaginta) appear to be false and corrupt! Most Christians are unaware that today's Bibles in English, are translations from Hebrew and Greek versions (the Old Testament being Hebrew and New Testament being Greek). Numerous scholars have noted that errors exist in all extant versions of the Bible. According to the Bible, Satan is the father or error and a liar, so he appears to be the author of the Bible, because no Bible is without textual errors, which are Satan's Hallmark!

Walter R. Mattfeld

The Septuagint

“It is in the Septuagint that Christians came up with the cockeyed notion that the Messiah was to be born of a virgin.”

The Septuagint was created by Jewish experts for the Greek-speaking world.

The misinterpretation is yours alone.

Jews reject the Septuagint

When the Jews is Jerusalem finally got a copy of the Septuagint and compared it to their Masoretic Texts, they went into mourning, covering themselves in ashes and sackcloth, for the Septuagint proved to be a very poor translation and full of corruptions and errors. The Jews in Alexandria, Egypt, however accepted the Septuagint, for they had lost touch with Hebrew as a written language, for they spoke Greek instead and had assimilated Greek ideas. The Palestinian Jews regarded the Septuagint a disaster. It was not to be considered authoritative in debates with Christians. The Palestinian Jews also regarded the Samaritan Text or Torah to be another disaster, not to be taken as authoritative in debates with Samaritans. The Peshitta (the Aramaic version of the Old Testament) was another translational disaster for the Palestinian Jews, not to be taken as authoritative.

Walter R. Mattfeld

Rizzman:

Good point. I really don’t know enough about Judaism to debate it, but I’ll ask my Jewish friend what she thinks.

"Hurry else Death may spy us here, and quicken the pulse of dawn . . ."

Breathtaking Ignorance

I don’t understand why you would want to comment publicly on a topic you have no knowledge of.  But for the record the Old Testament was originally recorded  during the Babylonian Exile.  Babylonia was was a large and cosmopolitan empire.  The Jews who were exiled there after the destruction of the Temple were apparently treated reasonably well.  They came in contact with many other cultures and religions and in time integrated into Babylonian  society, intermarrying and converting to other religions.  When they were allowed to return to their homeland only something like a third actually returned.

Whoever wrote the Torah borrowed from other religions and cultures around them, possibly because so much of their history and religion had been lost over the years or possibly because religions borrow from each other to entice converts.  Either way, all organized religions are the same and their beliefs can be pigeonholed as either: A – Man is Divine or Man is Base  and B – Man is essentially Good or Man is Evil.  Take one from column A and one from column B and you have every religion that has ever graced the Earth.

 

103
Bible origins

I enjoy reading opposing thoughts, for how else do we learn? And, I agree with some of the thoughts on this site.

I have been a student of comparative mythology for more than twenty years and one thing I’ve learned is that many of what we call the old religions must have had a common origin as they are so similar. In many cases, one culture took the names of another’s “gods” merely changing the name, sometimes as close as dropping or adding a single letter.

As for the Bible, my research has indicated that the OT was written down by the prophet Jeremiah after the Jews returned from exile in Babylon. Since prior to that, the “religion” of the Jews was oral, it makes sense that they incorporated the tales and legends of the different peoples they encountered while in Babylon, merely changing the names to Hebrew ones.

I do not believe that the Bible becomes more accurate until we reach Judges and Kings (though I think some mythology was incorporated in some of the characters i.e. David, who supposedly kills Goliath both with and without a sword and later someone named Elhanan is credited with killing Goliath - who is later claimed to kill the brother of Goliath).

I consider myself a Christian, yet I do not believe that the Bible is the “Word of God”. Otherwise, there would not be so many contradictions. However, the Bible is valuable as a  template as to how we should live out lives.

IMHO mythology is valuable as it relates not only the ancient history of a people (usually from a time before tales were written down) but also gives insight into their thoughts, mores and ideals.

Hopefully, open conversation will continue without undue criticism from others. It’s ok to disagree, but I don’t feel that anyone should be entirely negative. If you must post a disagreement, please cite references to uphold your reasoning.

You have Moses' words

“As for the Bible, my research has indicated that the OT was written down by the prophet Jeremiah after the Jews returned from exile in Babylon.”

You can conclude that only if you haven’t read the various works comprising the Old Testament, and you ignore their history.

Jeremiah wrote the OT?

Kitnkaat wrote: “As for the Bible, my research has indicated that the OT was written down by the prophet Jeremiah after the Jews returned from exile in Babylon.” My understanding? Jeremiah did not write the OT. He is portrayed as being a captive of rebellious Jews who flee to Tahpanhes, Egypt circa 587 BC after slaying the Babylonian appointed ruler of Judah. While in Egypt Jeremiah warns his Jewish captors that they are not safe in Egypt, for God will cause Egypt to fall to the Babylonians (see Jeremiah 42:17-22, 43:1-13, 44:1). Apparently Jeremiah's writings in Egypt were preserved and later were made a part of the Old Testament collection of books by a later redactor/editor. This editor knows of the Babylonian king Evil Merodach (Babylonian Amel Marduk) who began his reign circa 562 BC (Jeremiah 52:31).

Walter R. Mattfeld

That's ironic

the Old Testament was originally recorded  during the Babylonian Exile.

Speaking of "no knowledge," only someone to whom the Biblical texts are completely foreign can say that they were first recorded in Babylon. Ignoring centuries of recorded history is not “scholarship.”

As for your perverse and false dichotomy, there is an Option C: Man is evil, but God loved the world so much that He gave His only Son, that whoever trusts in Him will live forever.

The real Messiah was to be Zerubbabel, NOTJesus

In response to Santiago Matamoros' statement about Jesus, my research suggests that Jesus is a false Messiah. The Bible tells us who the real Messiah is to be and when he will come, something both Jews and Christians have turned a blind eye to for 2,500 years! The clues are found in the books of Jeremiah, Haggai, and Zechariah. Jeremiah tells us WHEN the Messiah will come. He has God declaring that after a 70 year Babylonian Exile he will restore his people back to their land and they will see the Temple rebuilt and a Messiah on David's Throne. The Temple was destroyed circa 587 BC by the Babylonians, subtract 70 years and the restoration is circa 517 BC for Jeremiah, of the Messiah on David's throne. Fast forward now some 70 years and circa 517 BC, the setting of the books of Haggai and Zechariah. They are in Jerusalem, urging Zerubbabel to rebuild the Temple of Solomon. Zechariah tells Zerubbabel that God has said he, Zerubbabel, will lay the Temple's foundation and then complete its building, and that the man who rebuilds the temple is to reign on the throne of David and the crown will be in the Temple for safe-keeping. Haggai backs up Zechariah, having God say he has chosen Zerubbabel to be his signet ring, a euphemism for a Messiah. WHEN will Zerubbabel be made the Messiah by God? Haggai says AFTER God has completed some unfinished business first! WHAT unfinished business? God is to overthrow the Throne of Kingdoms and its army of chariots and horsemen, THEN Zerubbabel will be made the Messiah or Signet Ring. Events proved Haggai and Zechariah to be false prophets, what they predicted did not come to pass. The Throne of Kingdoms, a coded eupemism for the Persian Monarch, Darius, was not overthrown. However, the Persian monarchy was overthrown in 332 BC by Alexander the Great of Macedon and Greece.
After completing the Temple, apparently Zerubbabel was called back to Babylon by his Persian Masters, and thus denied the Messiah-ship that was to be his for rebuilding the House of the Lord. In other words, God had been proved a liar, for the builder of the Temple was not made God's Signet Ring. Jeremiah turned out to be a false prophet too, along with Haggai and Zechariah, for he said Israel's Babylonian captivity would end in 70 years (circa 517 BC), it ended in 539 BC with the fall of Babylon to Cyrus of Persia. The Exile was not 70 years it was 48 years. By turning a blind eye to the failed prophecies of Jeremiah, Haggai, and Zechariah, Judaism and Christianity have been able to maintain themselves down through the centuries, convincing their followers that the Bible is God's Word and the Prophets were not false prophets. I heartily recommend the following book written by a Jewish Rabbi, on all this: Rabbi Hayyim Angel. _Haggai, Zechariah, and Malachi, Prophecy in an Age of Uncertainty._ Jerusalem. Maggid Books. First Edition. 2016.

Walter R. Mattfeld

That's not what the Prophets and Apostles say

“my research suggests that Jesus is a false Messiah. The Bible tells us who the real Messiah is to be and when he will come, something both Jews and Christians have turned a blind eye to for 2,500 years!”

You have to ignore both the Old and New Testaments to conclude that.

Zerubbabel was to be THE Messiah, NOT Jesus

I am quoting from my Bible to show Santiago Matamoros that Zerubbabel was to be THE Messiah NOT Jesus. I realize that all this must come as a shock to a devout Catholic like Santiago, and his disbelief is understandable. "When the Lord establishes the kingdom, Zerubbabel will be his Messiah" Footnote in reference to Haggai 2:20-23 (page 1147. Herbert G. May and Bruce M. Metzger, editors. The New Oxford Annotated Bible With the Apocrypha. Revised Standard Version. 1973, 1977). "The Branch, a Davidic figure who is to usher in the messianic age...here refers to Zerubbabel..." footnote 8 in reference to Zechariah 4:6-10 (p. 1150. New Oxford Annotated Bible. 1973. 1977). Introduction to the Book of Haggai: "But Haggai saw them [the rebuilding the Temple] also as necessary preparations for the messianic age. Upon the completion of these enterprises, the wonderful era foreseen by the earlier prophets would come; for God would bless his people with fruitfulness and prosperity, overthrow the Gentiles, and establish Zerubbabel as the messianic king on the throne of David." (p. 1145. The New Oxford Annotated Bible with the Apocrypha. 1973, 1977). "The crowning of the messianic leader. This section abounds with difficulties. Originally it probably directed the crowning of Zerubbabel as messianic king, but was revised to refer to Joshua...the new age will see the return of the exiles, conversion of the Gentiles, and completion of the temple." (p. 1152, in reference to Zechariah 6:9-14. The New Oxford Annotated Bible with the Apocrypha. 1973, 1977). Zechariah on who will build the temple or house of the Lord: "The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house; his hands shall also complete it." (Zechr 4:9) Zechariah informs us that he who builds the temple will reign on a throne: (Zechr 6:12-14) "...Thus saith the Lord of hosts, Behold, the man whose name is the Branch...he shall build the temple of the Lord...and shall bear royal honor, and shall sit and rule upon his throne. And there shall be a priest by his throne, and peaceful understanding shall be between them both. And the crown shall be in the temple of the Lord..." Jesus CANNOT BE THE MESSIAH BECAUSE HE DID NOT BUILD THE TEMPLE, ZERUBBABEL BUILT IT. Jesus cannot be the Messiah because no priest will stand at his side as ruler.

Walter R. Mattfeld

That's quite a straw man

“a devout Catholic like Santiago, and his disbelief is understandable”

You’re rushing from error to error, Walter. My religious persuasion has nothing to do with how I read Scripture.

I’m literate. I read. You should, too.

If you were to do that, then you would see that no one but Jesus of Nazareth fulfilled all of the Messianic prophecies. You would know that historical figures – even ancient Israel itself! – were types of Christ, foreshadowing Who and What He would be. You would know that Jesus Himself declared of the Temple: “Destroy this temple, and in three days, I will rebuild it.”

Which He did. The temple to which He was referring was His own body, which He “rebuilt” when He rose from the dead.

It’s very dishonest of you to rip portions of Scripture out of context in order to distort them.

Jesus fulfilled none of the Messianic Prophecies?

According to You Tube videos presented by a number of different Jewish Apologists Jesus fulfilled NONE of the Messianic prophecies! I suggest that Santiago have a look at those videos before he spouts off about Jesus having fulfilled_all_ of them! Santiago wrote of me: "It’s very dishonest of you to rip portions of Scripture out of context in order to distort them." I would like to call to Santiago's attention that his complaint made about me, is the very one made by Jewish Apologists regarding Christians, that the New Testament is an example of "ripping portions of Scripture out of context to distort them," and thereby create _false prophecies_ about the Messiah and then apply them to Jesus as being fulfilled.

Walter R. Mattfeld

Anyone who can read knows

Anyone who can read knows that you and your YouTubers are in error. Here’s what YHWH declares:

“to us a child is born, to us a son is given [...] and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace [...] on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and forevermore.”

“He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted.

But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed.

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.”

“My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? [...] I am a worm and not a man, scorned by mankind and despised by the people. All who see me mock me; they make mouths at me; they wag their heads; “He trusts in the Lord; let him deliver him; let him rescue him, for he delights in him!”

[...] Many bulls encompass me; strong bulls of Bashan surround me; they open wide their mouths at me, like a ravening and roaring lion. I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint; my heart is like wax; it is melted within my breast; my strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks to my jaws; you lay me in the dust of death.

For dogs encompass me; a company of evildoers encircles me; they have pierced my hands and feet—I can count all my bones—they stare and gloat over me; they divide my garments among them, and for my clothing they cast lots.”

That’s Isaiah and King David.

There are many more.

Reply

I’m not sure if that comment was directed at me, but I wanted to post some proof I have a lot of knowledge far more than most. I just posted this elsewhere, so if you read and think you may have just read it, you probably did. First, I created a video I want people to watch and give me their opinion.  Second, the god of the bible and all religions is more sick than probably any of you know. Because they’re all made up. No one can know any god, and furthermore everyone to exist was damned without hope before they were born. It never ceases to amaze me how almost every person in every nation spews the same murderous garbage. Their god is the real god. Some other nation is the evil god. They are child murderers. We must eliminate them. The whole idea of being anti-pedophilia and a protector of the innocent is an excuse to cover up something much sicker. That all are damned, all death is the same, and much of the pain, suffering and death is happening because almost no one is trying hard enough to evade death. People all over the world claim their forgiven or can be by a god and live like it. It’s all a lie so people can attempt to annihalate every one else (including their own race) and claim it was of god. I’m half jewish, and I always like to tell this joke : People ask me why I think Hitler did what he did to the jews. I tell them, probably living next to them for too long. I hope you realize I don’t specifically hate the jews. You can tag someone as racist, but it’s just another word for a patriot. None really cares what color you are, most will stab you in the back the minute you’re not looking. I know what the world’s problems are, and they are far, far worse than most think. I study the bible, I know it well Let me tell you a tiny detail I know. And if you think it’s amazing, I find stuff like that all the time. All the geneologies of Genesis from Adam through Jacob add up to something. There is only one other person’s age mentioned after that, and it’s joseph. The sum I got was 23,999. And when I listed jacob, I left the first two columns blank. Since it doesn’t list a son and his age when he had him. Now I’ll tell you why that is. The words and numbers were at one time a chart a person(s) created of how our time is, the days, years and so on. I have A LOT of evidence to back that up. It was some type of chart comparing a year to 1,000 days. There are 24,000 hours in 1,000 days. I believe someone found the recordings later or they were passed down wrongly believed to be a geneology. As I said, there is only one name mentioned after jacob, his son joseph. The bible says, at the very end of genesis joseph told physicians to embalm his father. It says the embalming took 40 days, and then the egyptians mourned for him 70 days. That’s 110 days. Then at the end of the same chapter, gen 50, it says joseph died being 110 years old. And that’s not the strangest part. Joseph was the 11th son of jacob. 110, 110, 11.0             That was not a geneology, as I wrote earlier I have a lot of proof. I also have a lot of proof the bible and all religions are a lie. I have a lot of proof such as numbers names and so forth from the bible, but all religions are basically the same : a lie.

damned2hell4ever

dissuction

hi

sorry but i dont about topic

   

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