Hello again Stuart. It’s said that the Turin Shroud is the most studied artefact in all of history, which I can well believe. Scarcely a month goes by without some new quasi-sci-fi scenario being tossed to the media like red meat to a slavering carnivore in a zoo.
So forgive me if I stand aside from the showbiz element, as I have these last few years, and patiently try to separate the science from the pseudoscience, focusing instead on hands-on modelling of the TS image.
It’s been quite a challenge, believe me, attempting patiently and hopefully systematically to match all the so-called enigmatic features of the TS body image – faint, fuzzy, negative, non-fluorescent, superficial, 3D properties, half-tone and other microscopic properties, but I do believe we are getting there (bit by bit).
Why the slow progress?
The main reason is the attempts by the godfathers of sindonology to rule out any mechanisms that involve (a) imprinting by direct contact and (b) thermal modification of linen fibres, aka the “scorch hypothesis” (taking scorch in its widest sense to mean superficially-discoloured linen, via one or other thermally-induced mechanism). So one’s essentially a one-man-band playing to an audience with fingers in its ears, though there are a handful of fellow experimentalists – Hugh Farey, Thibault Heimburger, some helpful and supportive, some less so...
You ask for me to state my current position. Well, I can tell you with a FAIR DEGREE OF CONFIDENCE (howzat!) that the TS image is a contact imprint, mainly on the grounds that (a) it looks like an imprint – explaining why it’s a negative image with reversal of normal light/dark tones, (b) the various non-contact processes that have been proposed are for the most part unscientific, especially those involving air-attenuated radiation of unspecified wavelength and (c) that the attempts to exclude contact-imprinting are based on flawed reasoning – assuming loosely-draped linen instead of that which is manually-impressed by employees of Relics-U-Like (founded circa 1350?). Likewise the attempts to rule out thermal imprinting: arguments based on “ultra-superficiality” (notably the alleged 200nm image thickness), or allegedly undisturbed crystallinity of cellulose etc are simply not the killer-points they are made out to be.
On the one hand we’re told that a 200nm thick image (based on Ray Rogers’ guesstimate) needs a 21st century uv excimer laser to stand any chance of being modelled. Yet elsewhere the same light-sabre wielding Star Wars team are accepting without question a contrary finding of Ray Rogers’, namely that image fibres are mechanically-weak compared to non image fibres. Spot the discrepancy – how can a modification of a highly superficial surface layer of a linen fibre – maybe the flaky primary cell wall of the flax cell, weaken the entire fibre that is maybe 50 times as thick?
More importantly, the underlying bias is plain for all to see – the all-too-apparent attempt to shoot down the ideas and experimental approaches of those questioning authenticity (“not made by human hands”) without bothering to evaluate thoroughly, or even do the most basic experiments with conventional forms of energy, notably heat, whether conducted, convected or radiated. This experimentalist has tried all three: in chronological order: radiated heat, i.e. infrared (thermostencilling with a radiation-absorbing blackbody – plain charcoal); conducted heat requiring physical contact (hot metal template); convected heat using moving hot gas (oven roasting flour imprint in moving hot air )
Which does the business? Brief pause for further fence-sitting and vacillation. Answer: convection (current flour-imprinting model !). I say that with a FAIR DEGREE OF CONFIDENCE (howzat ;-)
Best I stop there for now. I’ll be back later in the day, setting out what we know versus what we don’t know about the chemical nature of the TS image. Hopefully it will become clearer why one has to proceed so cautiously and avoid making rash pronouncements that one might later regret. I’m certainly not in the business of tossing those juicy morsels of red meat to the ever-hungry mass media. Indeed I would like to see the latter moved to a blander vegetarian diet. Give plodding ol’ conventional mainstream science a look-in is what I say, being careful to distinguish from pseudoscience (agenda-driven "discoveries" dressed up to look like science). That’s easier said than done, when physics-trained technologists and others with their latest gee-whizz box of tricks decide to become sindonologists, nuff said).
Hi Colin, me again. I’ve read through your last few responses and also tried to gain an understanding of what your current hypothesis is on the origin, purpose and meaning of the TS – you’ve been careful to pose questions of self-enquiry rather than coming out with your conclusion on the matter. I appreciate the research and experiments you’ve re-created but I’m not sure to what end? I’m a bit lost in the verbose to be honest and I’m struggling to understand what you believe (so far) the TS to be. You’ve gone to great lengths to ‘recreate’ similar images of the shroud so I suppose you believe the shroud is some form of crude, but well-planned work of art. Quick question – has anyone ever been able to identify what exactly the darkened areas (that form the image) on the original shroud are composed of? By example of your experiments with flour, has there been conclusive evidence on the original shroud of the presence of flour? It’s a layman’s question but one I’m sure other readers will appreciate.
Hi Colin, me again. I’ve read through your last few responses and also tried to gain an understanding of what your current hypothesis is on the origin, purpose and meaning of the TS – you’ve been careful to pose questions of self-enquiry rather than coming out with your conclusion on the matter. I appreciate the research and experiments you’ve re-created but I’m not sure to what end? I’m a bit lost in the verbose to be honest and I’m struggling to understand what you believe (so far) the TS to be. You’ve gone to great lengths to ‘recreate’ similar images of the shroud so I suppose you believe the shroud is some form of crude, but well-planned work of art. Quick question – has anyone ever been able to identify what exactly the darkened areas (that form the image) on the original shroud are composed of? By example of your experiments with flour, has there been conclusive evidence on the original shroud of the presence of flour for example? It’s a layman’s question but one I’m sure other readers will appreciate.
I have had a good browse and may pick it up after some of my current projects.
My interest synchronises with yours, have you viewed the comments on my profile? I was shown the pattern to the World and I see also this pattern in the Celestial. I have studied animal features, unique dynamics and the correlation to the World anatomy. I have also studied numerous species and their global variations correlated to global anatomy. It is by this awareness that much of the esoterical and mysterious messages can take on a new meaning. There is much confusion with all of the traditional gods and goddesses but once you recognise the main structures and then how these break down into smaller attributes or characteristics, things become much simplier. Examples would be for biblical structures the Holy Spirit refers to the terrestrial World body and then there is the Heavenly Father. There is then great confusion between the Father as god and a larger God figure. Each of these bodies are then broken down into the angelic attributes for each level as well as other divisional contributions. This is the same for all cultures who use different names. For the Egyptian heavenly body Nut is there divided into the twelve anatomical parts.
Quote
One text is the Gospel of Thomas which is part of the newly discovered Nag Hammadi texts (discovered 1945-1947). Most are composed about the same time as the Biblical gospels in the 1st and 2nd century AD. In this gospel, Jesus declares that his disciples must hate their earthly parents (as in Luke 14:26) but love the Father and Mother as he does, "for my mother (gave me falsehood), but (my) true Mother gave me life." In another Nag Hammadi discovery, The Secret Book of James, Jesus refers to himself as "the son of the Holy Spirit."
Many mysteries can be solved with respect to this comprehension. From the simple design of Stonehenge being the Earthly zodiac connection and is the design of Cancer, next to Leo the Sphinx, which is next to Virgo and Israel is the land of Virgo confirmed by Mr Christ and the Virgin Mary. These are all traditional zones and each are anatomy points. Each sign is represented by the animal characteristic representing this point of the anatomy. Our ancient records show how global civilisations communicated and built monuments to this pattern. I am reintroducing the missing link, with a contemporary twist; the physical recognition of the full body of Earth, Mother Nature, Gaia, Papa Tuanuku... and the connection life on Earth has to this pattern. All our animals today, fossil records plus ancient monuments and messages, dance and arts, myths and legends all change globally and fit this pattern as seen in my picture.
curious how you arrived at that conclusion for a reason to be ruling out advanced knowledge of technology that in no way relates to the subject of child mortality rates? seems like you may be grasping at straws it's like an advanced artistic technique and medical sciences correlate to the same thing. kind of like saying, if i can work indoor plumbing i should be able to manufacture antibiotics right?
Stop the destruction of peoples ancestry. Stop trying to wipe peoples existence off the planet. Greed and over population are to blame. Time for the indigenous to stand up!
Back again. The previous image manipulation has been re-run, ie. sticking the face image to the side of a wine bottle and re-photographing, with greater attention to technique.
Here's what one sees using the ink jet printer to make a hard copy of BOTH the with/without bottle-mounted imaging, and then , as a bonus, using ImageJ software to compare the positive images (orange) with the negative tone-reversed images (blue)
(Sorry about the blue btw - ImageJ inverts the colours' RGB mix as well as the tones).
Two quick observations:
Reading left to right, one sees what contact imprinting can do to image width, if one takes the standard orange TS images from Shroud Scope to be artefactually 'expanded' versions of the 'real' blue after contact imprinting.
So yes, there's at least 'lateral expansion', and maybe a degree of 'lateral distortion' as well, though the latter is hardly gross, and might not be noticed if one had never laid eyes on the real subject, having only the final expanded image at one's disposal.
Implications for TS authenticity? Might the "full face" image we assume to be faithful to the original appearance of the imprinted subject be too wide ? Did the imprinted subject, whether 1st or 14th century, have a leaner more sallow face?
Which pair of positive/negative imprints look more realistic : the wider or the thinner? Can one eyeball and arrive at an opinion, based on one's life experience of human physiognomy? Or might there be more scientific ways of arriving at a decision, like comparing vertical dimensions with horizontal ones, e.g. length of nose with distance between eyes?
Pretty disappointed that it wasn't mentioned that the "mausoleum of Numidian kings" is the tomb and resting place of queen cleopatra Selene And King Juba.
Well you’re quite welcome! The investment in time and effort you’ve made is appreciated. I’ve been following the discussion here with great interest, as we all do at Ancient Origins (we might not always chime in though, unless someone has a direct question) as we want to hear what our readers think. Keep up the great work :)
And I say wow too. Wow for the positive feedback - extremely rare in the defensive world of sindonology if one's sceptical of Shroud authenticity. And a second extra big WOW for this foot-soldier 'below the line' to be noticed by the staff-writer of an article 'above the line' - virtually unheard of, in fact. Thanks Ms.Leafloor. May I call you Liz in future?
That experiment needs more fine-tuning - to achieve a better before-and-after colour match - not easy when relying on an ink-jet printer* - and also to crop the "after" picture less severely next time to show more of the face and hair.
*Afterthought: I can print out the "before" image as well, then re-photograph, so as to equalize the differences introduced by the printer.
Hands-on research is 90% tedium, needless to say, but that's the nature of science bizz.
When do we get to find the hidden chamber that is the secret library? This has been a favorite of mine since Edgar Cayce said we would find it. It is also mentioned by the Rosicrucians and Masons as being beneath the paws of the Spinx. It is always great to see treasures of the past and learn what they used for everyday life. Finding the hidden library could reconnect us with the knowledge lost with Alexandria. While I love to fantasize about what may be found, there could be the answers for their mysterious technologies and translations of lost languages from vanished civilizations. Of course if there is a Star Gate in the chamber that could help too.
The roof of the building is under several feet of sand AND is almost completely under water because the groundwater table.
This site is not going to be vandalised soon (luckily!)
As far as I know, no actions have been taken to drain the location of the groundwater. I believe I've read somewhere that draining is nearly impossible as it is the groundwater table which is fed by the Nile.
Ànd the fact that a canal is now running over the supposed location of the labyrinth.
I hope that Egypt will start trying to do something here (with or without help from other counties/groups) as I'm convinced that this IS the place the 'lost' labyrinth is located. Flinders Petrie already found a large slate of stone, which he (mis)identified as the floor of the labyrinth, thinking the structure was already demolished. LiDaR and such have already concluded there are stone structures underneath the sand, so basically what Petrie found was the roof!
Here you can navigate quickly through all comments made in any article sorted by date/time.
Hello again Stuart. It’s said that the Turin Shroud is the most studied artefact in all of history, which I can well believe. Scarcely a month goes by without some new quasi-sci-fi scenario being tossed to the media like red meat to a slavering carnivore in a zoo.
So forgive me if I stand aside from the showbiz element, as I have these last few years, and patiently try to separate the science from the pseudoscience, focusing instead on hands-on modelling of the TS image.
It’s been quite a challenge, believe me, attempting patiently and hopefully systematically to match all the so-called enigmatic features of the TS body image – faint, fuzzy, negative, non-fluorescent, superficial, 3D properties, half-tone and other microscopic properties, but I do believe we are getting there (bit by bit).
Why the slow progress?
The main reason is the attempts by the godfathers of sindonology to rule out any mechanisms that involve (a) imprinting by direct contact and (b) thermal modification of linen fibres, aka the “scorch hypothesis” (taking scorch in its widest sense to mean superficially-discoloured linen, via one or other thermally-induced mechanism). So one’s essentially a one-man-band playing to an audience with fingers in its ears, though there are a handful of fellow experimentalists – Hugh Farey, Thibault Heimburger, some helpful and supportive, some less so...
You ask for me to state my current position. Well, I can tell you with a FAIR DEGREE OF CONFIDENCE (howzat!) that the TS image is a contact imprint, mainly on the grounds that (a) it looks like an imprint – explaining why it’s a negative image with reversal of normal light/dark tones, (b) the various non-contact processes that have been proposed are for the most part unscientific, especially those involving air-attenuated radiation of unspecified wavelength and (c) that the attempts to exclude contact-imprinting are based on flawed reasoning – assuming loosely-draped linen instead of that which is manually-impressed by employees of Relics-U-Like (founded circa 1350?). Likewise the attempts to rule out thermal imprinting: arguments based on “ultra-superficiality” (notably the alleged 200nm image thickness), or allegedly undisturbed crystallinity of cellulose etc are simply not the killer-points they are made out to be.
On the one hand we’re told that a 200nm thick image (based on Ray Rogers’ guesstimate) needs a 21st century uv excimer laser to stand any chance of being modelled. Yet elsewhere the same light-sabre wielding Star Wars team are accepting without question a contrary finding of Ray Rogers’, namely that image fibres are mechanically-weak compared to non image fibres. Spot the discrepancy – how can a modification of a highly superficial surface layer of a linen fibre – maybe the flaky primary cell wall of the flax cell, weaken the entire fibre that is maybe 50 times as thick?
https://shroudofturinwithoutallthehype.wordpress.com/2012/12/29/end-of-y...
More importantly, the underlying bias is plain for all to see – the all-too-apparent attempt to shoot down the ideas and experimental approaches of those questioning authenticity (“not made by human hands”) without bothering to evaluate thoroughly, or even do the most basic experiments with conventional forms of energy, notably heat, whether conducted, convected or radiated. This experimentalist has tried all three: in chronological order: radiated heat, i.e. infrared (thermostencilling with a radiation-absorbing blackbody – plain charcoal); conducted heat requiring physical contact (hot metal template); convected heat using moving hot gas (oven roasting flour imprint in moving hot air )
Which does the business? Brief pause for further fence-sitting and vacillation. Answer: convection (current flour-imprinting model !). I say that with a FAIR DEGREE OF CONFIDENCE (howzat ;-)
Best I stop there for now. I’ll be back later in the day, setting out what we know versus what we don’t know about the chemical nature of the TS image. Hopefully it will become clearer why one has to proceed so cautiously and avoid making rash pronouncements that one might later regret. I’m certainly not in the business of tossing those juicy morsels of red meat to the ever-hungry mass media. Indeed I would like to see the latter moved to a blander vegetarian diet. Give plodding ol’ conventional mainstream science a look-in is what I say, being careful to distinguish from pseudoscience (agenda-driven "discoveries" dressed up to look like science). That’s easier said than done, when physics-trained technologists and others with their latest gee-whizz box of tricks decide to become sindonologists, nuff said).
So, it's 3 years later.. any more news on this subject?
Hi Colin, me again. I’ve read through your last few responses and also tried to gain an understanding of what your current hypothesis is on the origin, purpose and meaning of the TS – you’ve been careful to pose questions of self-enquiry rather than coming out with your conclusion on the matter. I appreciate the research and experiments you’ve re-created but I’m not sure to what end? I’m a bit lost in the verbose to be honest and I’m struggling to understand what you believe (so far) the TS to be. You’ve gone to great lengths to ‘recreate’ similar images of the shroud so I suppose you believe the shroud is some form of crude, but well-planned work of art. Quick question – has anyone ever been able to identify what exactly the darkened areas (that form the image) on the original shroud are composed of? By example of your experiments with flour, has there been conclusive evidence on the original shroud of the presence of flour? It’s a layman’s question but one I’m sure other readers will appreciate.
Hi Colin, me again. I’ve read through your last few responses and also tried to gain an understanding of what your current hypothesis is on the origin, purpose and meaning of the TS – you’ve been careful to pose questions of self-enquiry rather than coming out with your conclusion on the matter. I appreciate the research and experiments you’ve re-created but I’m not sure to what end? I’m a bit lost in the verbose to be honest and I’m struggling to understand what you believe (so far) the TS to be. You’ve gone to great lengths to ‘recreate’ similar images of the shroud so I suppose you believe the shroud is some form of crude, but well-planned work of art. Quick question – has anyone ever been able to identify what exactly the darkened areas (that form the image) on the original shroud are composed of? By example of your experiments with flour, has there been conclusive evidence on the original shroud of the presence of flour for example? It’s a layman’s question but one I’m sure other readers will appreciate.
Thank you Alanna,
I have had a good browse and may pick it up after some of my current projects.
My interest synchronises with yours, have you viewed the comments on my profile?
I was shown the pattern to the World and I see also this pattern in the Celestial. I have studied animal features, unique dynamics and the correlation to the World anatomy. I have also studied numerous species and their global variations correlated to global anatomy. It is by this awareness that much of the esoterical and mysterious messages can take on a new meaning. There is much confusion with all of the traditional gods and goddesses but once you recognise the main structures and then how these break down into smaller attributes or characteristics, things become much simplier. Examples would be for biblical structures the Holy Spirit refers to the terrestrial World body and then there is the Heavenly Father. There is then great confusion between the Father as god and a larger God figure. Each of these bodies are then broken down into the angelic attributes for each level as well as other divisional contributions. This is the same for all cultures who use different names. For the Egyptian heavenly body Nut is there divided into the twelve anatomical parts.
Quote
One text is the Gospel of Thomas which is part of the newly discovered Nag Hammadi texts (discovered 1945-1947). Most are composed about the same time as the Biblical gospels in the 1st and 2nd century AD. In this gospel, Jesus declares that his disciples must hate their earthly parents (as in Luke 14:26) but love the Father and Mother as he does, "for my mother (gave me falsehood), but (my) true Mother gave me life." In another Nag Hammadi discovery, The Secret Book of James, Jesus refers to himself as "the son of the Holy Spirit."
Many mysteries can be solved with respect to this comprehension. From the simple design of Stonehenge being the Earthly zodiac connection and is the design of Cancer, next to Leo the Sphinx, which is next to Virgo and Israel is the land of Virgo confirmed by Mr Christ and the Virgin Mary. These are all traditional zones and each are anatomy points. Each sign is represented by the animal characteristic representing this point of the anatomy. Our ancient records show how global civilisations communicated and built monuments to this pattern.
I am reintroducing the missing link, with a contemporary twist; the physical recognition of the full body of Earth, Mother Nature, Gaia, Papa Tuanuku... and the connection life on Earth has to this pattern. All our animals today, fossil records plus ancient monuments and messages, dance and arts, myths and legends all change globally and fit this pattern as seen in my picture.
curious how you arrived at that conclusion for a reason to be ruling out advanced knowledge of technology that in no way relates to the subject of child mortality rates? seems like you may be grasping at straws it's like an advanced artistic technique and medical sciences correlate to the same thing. kind of like saying, if i can work indoor plumbing i should be able to manufacture antibiotics right?
Stop the destruction of peoples ancestry. Stop trying to wipe peoples existence off the planet. Greed and over population are to blame. Time for the indigenous to stand up!
does the statue have two sets of genitals?
well whether a grave or memorial, it should be opened, or at least sonar used, see if hollow behind and/or under it.
Back again. The previous image manipulation has been re-run, ie. sticking the face image to the side of a wine bottle and re-photographing, with greater attention to technique.
Here's what one sees using the ink jet printer to make a hard copy of BOTH the with/without bottle-mounted imaging, and then , as a bonus, using ImageJ software to compare the positive images (orange) with the negative tone-reversed images (blue)
https://shroudofturinwithoutallthehype.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/new.p...
(Sorry about the blue btw - ImageJ inverts the colours' RGB mix as well as the tones).
Two quick observations:
Reading left to right, one sees what contact imprinting can do to image width, if one takes the standard orange TS images from Shroud Scope to be artefactually 'expanded' versions of the 'real' blue after contact imprinting.
So yes, there's at least 'lateral expansion', and maybe a degree of 'lateral distortion' as well, though the latter is hardly gross, and might not be noticed if one had never laid eyes on the real subject, having only the final expanded image at one's disposal.
Implications for TS authenticity? Might the "full face" image we assume to be faithful to the original appearance of the imprinted subject be too wide ? Did the imprinted subject, whether 1st or 14th century, have a leaner more sallow face?
Which pair of positive/negative imprints look more realistic : the wider or the thinner? Can one eyeball and arrive at an opinion, based on one's life experience of human physiognomy? Or might there be more scientific ways of arriving at a decision, like comparing vertical dimensions with horizontal ones, e.g. length of nose with distance between eyes?
Nope, probably not.
Back to the drawing board...
I found this site extremely interesting and informative… Many thanks to the originators.
Pretty disappointed that it wasn't mentioned that the "mausoleum of Numidian kings" is the tomb and resting place of queen cleopatra Selene And King Juba.
Well you’re quite welcome! The investment in time and effort you’ve made is appreciated. I’ve been following the discussion here with great interest, as we all do at Ancient Origins (we might not always chime in though, unless someone has a direct question) as we want to hear what our readers think. Keep up the great work :)
And I say wow too. Wow for the positive feedback - extremely rare in the defensive world of sindonology if one's sceptical of Shroud authenticity. And a second extra big WOW for this foot-soldier 'below the line' to be noticed by the staff-writer of an article 'above the line' - virtually unheard of, in fact. Thanks Ms.Leafloor. May I call you Liz in future?
That experiment needs more fine-tuning - to achieve a better before-and-after colour match - not easy when relying on an ink-jet printer* - and also to crop the "after" picture less severely next time to show more of the face and hair.
*Afterthought: I can print out the "before" image as well, then re-photograph, so as to equalize the differences introduced by the printer.
Hands-on research is 90% tedium, needless to say, but that's the nature of science bizz.
Wow! You really went above and beyond – nice work! It’s great to see results of experimentation. Thanks very much Colin.
When do we get to find the hidden chamber that is the secret library? This has been a favorite of mine since Edgar Cayce said we would find it. It is also mentioned by the Rosicrucians and Masons as being beneath the paws of the Spinx. It is always great to see treasures of the past and learn what they used for everyday life. Finding the hidden library could reconnect us with the knowledge lost with Alexandria. While I love to fantasize about what may be found, there could be the answers for their mysterious technologies and translations of lost languages from vanished civilizations. Of course if there is a Star Gate in the chamber that could help too.
What other tools have been found there, any that might have been used to make the maoi? Many tools can be used as weapons,and weapons are tools.
What other tools have been found,any that might have been used to carve the maoi? Lots of tools can be used as weapons, and weapons are tools.
The roof of the building is under several feet of sand AND is almost completely under water because the groundwater table.
This site is not going to be vandalised soon (luckily!)
As far as I know, no actions have been taken to drain the location of the groundwater. I believe I've read somewhere that draining is nearly impossible as it is the groundwater table which is fed by the Nile.
Ànd the fact that a canal is now running over the supposed location of the labyrinth.
I hope that Egypt will start trying to do something here (with or without help from other counties/groups) as I'm convinced that this IS the place the 'lost' labyrinth is located. Flinders Petrie already found a large slate of stone, which he (mis)identified as the floor of the labyrinth, thinking the structure was already demolished. LiDaR and such have already concluded there are stone structures underneath the sand, so basically what Petrie found was the roof!
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