Excellent article and discussion, especially that everyone is being respectful of alternative theories. I do have a few comments to make.

Not all Hebrews would need not have been literate for the Bible to be written. In all ancient societies, there were some who were literate and only a few would be needed to write the Bible.

The Bible, especially the OR is a collection of Folktales, otherwise there would not have been 2 accounts of creation etc.

Although Paul (Saul) was educated he would not have been called literate in our present society where reading and writing are necessary. In the ancient world, the disciplines of reading and writing were taught separately. If you read the letters of Paul, he adds his own note at the end, apologizing for his poor writing. He employed a scribe (or scribes) to write his letters.

Christ could not have been born in 2 BC as Herod died in 4 BC

I believe that Constantine was converted to Christianity, though I think he remained a closet follower of Mithras. As stated, MIthras was very popular among the military and he was a military man. I think he realized that Christianity was a way to unite the different factions of his Empire. I will not comment on whether or not he was a true convert as arguments can be made either way. Regardless,the import fact is that he made Christianity both legal and desirable.

When Christ was actually born is not as important as that HE was born and that we celebrate with Joy is something that is truly wonderful.

In summary, who cares when the events actually occurred. As someone above stated, religion is a matter  of faith. Let’s just celebrate in JOy and Love, as the season is intended.

Hello John, Sorry if the idea was I was inferring you were'dishing dirt'. I don't try to do that. You didn't mention that the Book of Secrets was a tome you had written, that I saw. I've read many with similar titles & have been disappointed in the typically wandering contents, some of which were displayed in your last dialogue. However, to be fair, I' like to read it, if it's available. If so, let me know how to procure it. The idea that Freemasons are imposed upon the politics of America, especially when they are in such disarray, is hard to fathom, when considering their proclivity to order. The disorder has been in place since Abe Lincoln's assasination & is of foreign influences, as was the demands by the same that the USA abandon the silver standard & join the internationalist ( globalist) gold standard. Anyways, Forward the info on how to obtain your book & I'll certainly review it. Thanks for the civilized discourse, by the way. It's refreshing as some who attempt to profer informational content actually seem more bent to spew forth nonsense or personal agenda. Thank you. Mike

I see it sitting on your black sands (and some nice chippys of gold) woruld you say that it is as dence as silver (say 11) or as dence as gold (say 18). I have found perfect little micro springs of gold on the San Francisco river outside of Morinci Arizona, we belevieved them to be natural. I have never seen any natural gold desingn such as this.

I have this convolution mapping filter that searches for repeating fractals inside images. Things mage by shamens and monks and such always have weird imagry. Mundaine things have weird imagry that is not faces. I will run it on these images if you like.

Another thought might be that the survivors of the flood were remembering the previous civilization, that had been destroyed by the flood. IF there was a worldwide civilization, the survivors were “scattered” throughout the world and began speaking other languages when they lost contact as the generations passed. I know this is not biblical thought but just throwing it out there for consideration.

I totally agree with you, you put it very eloquently. I wish I could put it so well when I try to explain my belief in the ancient alien theory, but even my friends just give me a kindly look of disbelief.

Let’s look at the Matthean pericope Mt 2:1-11 with a fresh eye. The canonical text (further simply “the text”) reports about ONLY two observations of an unusual “star” by the magi: the first time the magi “saw his star when it rose” Mt 2:2 (here and further “New International Version”) and the second time AFTER the “star” had “stopped over the place where the child was” (cf. Mt 2:9 and Mt 2:10).It may be assumed that the first time the magi saw the rising “star” near Jerusalem. The magi thought that “a king of the Jews” was born in the capital and hurried there to worship him. They came to Jerusalem in the late morning or afternoon, so the “star” was not visible in daylight and no one could see it. Herod was quickly informed about the excited magi and their report. But there was not a suitable baby in the families of Herod’s numerous descendants. Then the king could simply ignore the magi with their fantasies.But someone from Herod’s environment “added fuel to the dying fire” making a clarification: according to the prophecy Numbers 24.17 the rising of an unusual “star” could mean much more than the birth of another future “king of the Jews”, namely the birth of Christ - the Messiah - Mashiach. At the meeting Herod asked “chief priests and teachers of the law… where the Messiah was to be born. “In Bethlehem in Judea” they replied… Then Herod called the Magi secretly" Mt 2.4,5,7. The king did not leave the meeting immediately so the magi had to wait. Herod met the magi in the evening and he wanted them to show him their “star”. However, their “star” had not yet risen and the king only “found out from them the exact time the star had appeared” Mt 2.7. Herod wasn’t impressed at all by the humble magi and their report. He was sure they would not find in Bethlehem a newborn "king of the Jews” and even less Messiah. That’s why he did not give them any escort.The magi spent the night in Jerusalem, and the next day at dawn they went to Bethlehem. That morning the magi did not observe the rise of their “star”, probably due to cloudy weather. Though “the text” says that “the star they had seen when it rose went ahead of them” Mt 2.9 the magi did not observe it when they were following the winding road through hills to Bethlehem (cloudy weather). They saw the “star” for the second time only after it had "stopped over the place where the child was” (cf. Mt 2.9 and Mt 2.10). Thus when the magi had seen the “star” for the first time they left it behind them and entered Jerusalem from the east, and now they suddenly saw the “star” standing over the house in front of them. That’s why it was reported in oral traditions and later written in the Gospel “went ahead of them” Mt 2.9. Note that according to my hypothesis two observations of the “star” by the magi are separated by a little more than one day.It is obvious that Matthew did not invent these fine details, but carefully wrote down what came to him in the oral tradition several decades after the events. It may be easily shown that such a simple realistic interpretation is in a better agreement with the letter and spirit of the canonical text than traditional ones! And with this interpretation one easily solves the “astronomy puzzles”, enumerated in Prof. David A. Weintraub’s article “Can astronomy explain the biblical Star of Bethlehem?”For Puzzle 1. The text doesn’t say that the “star” was bright or the “star” led the magi to Jerusalem. They left it rising behind them.For Puzzle 2. The text doesn’t say that the “star” led the magi from Jerusalem to Bethlehem. They followed the winding road through hills, not the “star”.For Puzzle 3. According to the text first the “star” had stopped over the house and only after the magi saw it in front of them.But what could the ‘rising star’ be in reality? Dr. E.C. Krupp, Director of Griffith Observatory, Los Angeles, California kindly sent me a quotation from his book: “In astrological terms, there is always something going on overhead. If you give me a date for the birth of Christ, I’ll give you a Christmas Star.” (“Beyond the Blue Horizon: Myths and Legends of the Sun, Moon, Stars, and Planets”. New York: HarperCollins, 1991), page 311). In other words, it is not difficult to propose a candidate for the role of the Christmas star. But it is much more important to verify on the basis of independent sources the events which are described in the canonical “Nativity story” and possibly correct it. That’s what I try to do in my hypothesis.In an ancient manuscript one may read: “Anno sequenti Herodes rediens a Roma cum videret qui illusus esset a magis…”, i.e. “The following year on his return from Rome, when Herod saw that he was mocked of the wise men…” (Manuscrit D, Paris, BNP Nr. 1652). According to modern scholars the last voyage of Herod to Rome took place in the late summer of 12 BCE. In the Chinese dynastic history “Ch' en-han-shu. Treatise on the Five Elements "one may read: “On August 26 [in the year 12 BCE] a star emerged at Tung-Ching …In the morning it appeared at the East direction…”. Modern calculations have shown that it was Halley’s comet. For further details, see a short summary of my hypothesis on the site http:// www.nativity.reznikova.ru/eng/.

Alexander Reznikov. Moscow.

The helical rising could have foretold the birth. So that the birth could have occurred at the moment Jupiter stopped moving westward and stood still.

Hello Tsurugu,

In my book The Global Mind and the Rise of Civilization I have the references to the original work of carbon 14-dating the Egyptian pyramids. What I think should be noted is that this work was paid for by people speculating about Atlantis and who believed that these were 12,500 years old based on visions of Edgar Cayce. The investigation was conducted by mainstream archeologists such as Mark Lehner and it turned out that this was not the case. I thus think that the important take home from this study is that even if the results were a little bit different from the established estimate it was far, far closer to this archeologists consensus date than to what the Atlantis people expected.

As you can see in Figure 3 in my article, Göbekli Tepe was built as a consequence of the downloading of a pre-wave of the Mayan Long Count. The Maya in other words wrote several inscriptions also about the time when this site was built. In general the Global Mind, whether at the beginning of this pre-wave in 8240 BC or at the real wave in 3115 BCE brought geometry to the human minds that were in resonance with it,which they expressed in their constructions. This geometry however became much more precise and advanced with the real wave and so even if we see first real rectilinear geometry created by humans in Göbeki Tepe it is not at all as precise as what comes later. The structures are “roundish” rather than at Stonehenge or Newgrange (laid out about 3100 BC) where they are pretty precise, not to mention the precision of the Egyptian pyramids.

The Star of Bethlehem was Halley's Comet. This has been missed because the birth of Christ was not 2,016 years ago, but 1,716 years ago. Three hundred years of the so-called "Dark Ages" between roughly 615 and 915 never existed at all and were inserted into the calendar in the reign of Holy Roman Emperor Otto III. This whole question is outlined in great detail in several books by German author Heribert Illig and have been summarized by myself in a work called "Guide to the Phantom Dark Age". No archaeology for the years between 615 and 915 can be found anywhere, even in the Byzantine and Muslim worlds which were not overthrown by the barbarian Goths and Huns and who should therefore have no dark age.

The retrocalculated appearances of Halley's Comet show nothing for the years between 7 B.C. and 1 B.C., the supposed probable dates of Jesus' birth. However, Halley's Comet would have appeared spectacularly in the western sky in the spring of 295 A.D. (Recall that Jesus was probably born about 4 or 5 B.C., so this explains why it didn't appear in 300 A.D.). Even more to the point, to wise men in Persia or Babylonia, the comet would have sat in the western sky - directly over the land of Israel!