Stephen, Did I mention anything about mass looting during the Vietnam conflict. Do not forget the US entered the Vietnam conflict after the French left. And there are reports if you hunt them down of things being taking out of Vietnam by both French and American citizens and others during the 50's and 60's. Ignorance is bliss, so they say.
Could not help notice that we did not mention anything about what happened to American and Canadian citizens of Japanese descent. Nor anything about the thefts with the Afghanistan or Iraq invasions.
Yes if things where returned they could be destroyed which would be a shame and a crime. But as they say that's the way the cookie crumbles.
No I was not trying to be/do anti american propaganda, there are already lots of folks doing that. No need for myself to jump on that band wagon. Just stating facts. I do find it interesting that everyone who points fingers in their own little way seem to be the ones that forget history, distort knowledge, claim it for their own, and just do not and refuse to believe that they could do anything like their perceived 'enemies'.
And yes I am in complete agreement that replicas should be made then the originals returned. I also have a problem with human remains being on public display. It just does not seem right.
what nonsense there was no mass looting in Vietnam,for one the people who owned anything were elite Catholics and they weer quite adept at retaining their resources but nice anti American propaganda. US troop had little or no contact with the affluent Vietnamese except a ARVN here and there
I will tell you this if YOu send those articles back to Africa there si av ery good chanc e they will eb destroyed by on or more Islamic groups in time.Every ethnic group thinks it superior ask the Tibetans about the Chinese,or the Rwandans, i would like to see all such antiquities reproduced and put inot museum but have them preserved inthe original in some site that is safe much like the seeds stored in Norway.
I would also like to stop seeing human remains on displays in museums,once again replicas holograms etc could be used.Yes British were racists,as are Chinese, Japanese etc and so on.
How can you say hieroglyphics where not invented by ancient Egyptians. The writings in meso are chicken scratch compared to 100 Years later a fully mastered manuscript of writing in ancient egypt and still not yet mastered in Meso
Hieroglyphs are often interpreted in historical terms but they also and clearly represents astronomical and cosmological knowledge. Take the Egyptian Story of Creation, the Ogdoad, which describes the basic and eternal cosmological conditions and the factual creation, not of the entire Universe wich is considered eternal, but of the ancient known part of it, our Milky Way galaxy.
In this telling, the Egyptian god Atum-Ra creates everything together from the basic elements and as Atum-Ra is closely connected to the Egyptian Mother Goddess Hathor, who resembles the Milky Way on the southern hemisphere, the Ogdoad story of creation clearly deals with the creation of the Milky Way and thus also of our Solar System. This story of creation is of course also mentioned in hieroglyphs and religions all over the world and they represents the human common cosmological knowledge of creation.
Both sides are not being quite honest about their true arguments and standing. This has nothing at all to do with the past or racism. It stems from a more recent and forever lingering Limey versus Frenchy...Anglican versus Catholic animosity issue.
Always ask what is being held in the hand behind their back...not the one they are showing you...
Mr Charles Larou, I am curious as to what you would call the following; With the onset of WW2 when American citizens of Japanese ancestry where arrested and interned in internment camps. Where they had their property seized, personal possession/family heirlooms confiscated ( seized ), business forced to close or being forced to sell their business and or possessions sold off at a ‘discount’ price. Please note; that when these possessions were seized and sold off the ‘money’ was not given to those who had their property/businesses/family heirlooms sold off. Was any of this ever returned with an apology or was the money made off the sales put into escrow and given to them when released from prison/jail, oh sorry from internment.
The same thing happened in Canada. Everything seized, taken and never returned.
Sorry to far into the past for you……. Flash forward then. What about during the Vietnam war. What was taken from the local’s, family heirlooms, museums etc. by the French and or Americans.
What was stolen in the final days with the Americans being kicked out and the massive confusion of trying to get people and their possessions out. What’s that called.
Sorry still too far in the past for you. O.K., lets flash forward again.
What about the American and Allies invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq. What about the reports of the looting of museums, of homes, of artifact's being stolen by various individuals and ‘government officials’. What was, is this called. What happy term, political correct word would YOU like to use for this.
Sorry, still too far back in time for you. What is going on right now? How many ‘legal’ expeditions are being conducted at this very moment. What about the ‘illegal’ looting of sites- where strange as it sounds some of these artifacts find their way into ‘public museum’s’ or private collections. What is, are you wanting to call this.
Just to let you know and please inquire for yourself it is well known that the theft of ‘art’ and ‘artifacts’ is a very ‘lucrative business’ which a lot of folks, legitimate people etc and not so legitimate people participate in. The same with many ‘institutions’.
So what fuzzy wuzzy warm word/term/concept, do you want to use for your sense of rationalization justification of what was and is being done? To ease your mind, to foster and legitimize all of this plundering, theft, stealing--- come on tell us, what?
By the way do you notice a pattern in all this. Do you, have you noticed a pattern from the past, specifically the last 150 years.
The pattern is all ( most ) of this is done by Europeans or those from other countries with a strong European ancestry. Is this not ‘rooted’ with the Europeans colonization/invasions of other countries world wide with the attitude of ‘we’ are better, we are stronger, we are superior.
Which in turn is rooted in the Christian belief pattern that if ‘you’ are not a Christian you are an ignorant, stupid heathen savage, not intelligent enough to have ……..??????
Let’s not forget and again please do the research for yourself, but that which we call today ‘modern archaeology’ its core root starts with a bunch of professionals of Christian faith background taking the Bible and travelling to the Levant/Middle East with the intent of; If we can prove that cities, sites, individuals mentioned in the bible, that all of this is ‘true’, then it stands to ‘reason’ that Jesus the Christ was a ‘real person’, oh sorry that ‘he’ was living and present in the past and was/is the ‘son of god’ our lord and saviour.
Further; I am not “Trying to view history through today’s goggles” as you put it. Rather I read/learn of our collective past/history. I read/learn about our collective mistakes and atrocities etc, and try not to allow, ask how can we, what can we do today to amend for what was done in the past, and please do not be so ignorant to believe that this is NOT happening at this very moment.
A side note; Are you foolish enough to believe that what ever country you are living in at this very moment, that there is not to a certain degree some ‘social engineering’ going on. Today we like to call it in our sense of superiority, (pseudo ) democracy.
Are we never going to learn from our collective past? Are we forever ‘doomed’ to continue to repeat our past? When do we stop? How do we go about bringing the changes required? YOU TELL ME.
First I believed in UFOs, then I thought the distances between the stars were too great for any civilization to cross, and now I wonder if they possibly could do it. I also wonder if it hadn't been for the long reign of the dinosaurs we, or somebody like us, might have evolved on earth 200 million years ago and we'd be a civilization traveling elsewhere across space. Would we be somebody else's ancient astronauts or gods?
Thanks for your comment – very interesting. My article and book is really only about progress of Isis cult in classical period of Romans and Greek world. There were of course other points of contact between India and the Near East at various times before this – for example the Indus Valley Culture traded with – the flow of ideas is two ways for sure. Not forgetting the common ground instanced in what one might call the Aryan “invasion” It is a particular interest of mine to document some of the similarities between Indian religion/philosophy and the Egyptian. The goddess Ishtar is Syrian & was indeed worshipped in Egypt after the Syrian conquest of Egypt but Isis was a native deity with far longer history – imo
Consider that if these items where not sitting in a museum any museum that they may have lost in the vast void of time never to be seen again Perhaps some have been rescued from just such a fate
The British Museum secured these artifacts long before most people realized the significance of these items were determined. This gives us an opportunity to view history through their eyes and how they viewed the world in their era. I really do not care about the social mores of the people who dig up the artifacts. the story is on the wall at the museum. By rewriting history will not change a thing.
In addition, comparing scientific research to nazi plunder is really a step beyond the pale. I find Archaeology a far more legitimate science then Social Engineering.
Stop trying to view history through today's gogles.
I think you’re expecting too much since the country in question is being questioned about its violations of the Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities, but its hardly surprising since learning about kings and queens is considered more important than localised history. I believe the Isle of Mann and Scotland have had their requests for objects to be returned refused too.
".....Lundén’s research also shows that the museum’s scholars did not help change the view of Africans. Instead they spread and gave scientific legitimisation to the stock stereotypes of Africans, such as the likening of Blacks to apes....."
It also helped to further lend legitimacy to the degradation of the black race through the biblical curse of the fictional Noah character, wherein his son Ham was cursed to be the father of Canaan, which was mistranslated to the 'black race'.
The book “The Rise of Christianity and the Proscription of Paganism” by Maude Huttman accurately lays out the ‘method’ by which Christianity rose to power. The book is actually a study of ‘economics’, ironically enough.
Between the years 300 and 500 a series of laws and decrees were enacted by Constantine and his successors which effectively outlawed non-christian beliefs to the point that you could be put the death for practicing the old ways. You could not own property or have a will. You could not hold employment of any meaningful position, etc,etc. It wasn’t the “message of the gentle Prince of Peace” that gave christianity its appeal. It was the threat of death to you and your family.
Many objects in such Museums would have long since vanished into private collections or been destroyed (not uncommon for stones from monuments etc to be removed for building construction) if they hadn't been taken by the British.. Does that justify their being taken / stolen in the first place? No.. but it's still the reality and it's lucky they were taken before such a fate could happen.
Just a shame that many of the objects in places like Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Mali weren't taken before they were destroyed. Such things are the worlds heritage as much as that of the area where they were found.
Here you can navigate quickly through all comments made in any article sorted by date/time.
... And you just time traveled back from there, so you are the authority or the ass spilling beans.
Stephen, Did I mention anything about mass looting during the Vietnam conflict. Do not forget the US entered the Vietnam conflict after the French left. And there are reports if you hunt them down of things being taking out of Vietnam by both French and American citizens and others during the 50's and 60's. Ignorance is bliss, so they say.
Could not help notice that we did not mention anything about what happened to American and Canadian citizens of Japanese descent. Nor anything about the thefts with the Afghanistan or Iraq invasions.
Yes if things where returned they could be destroyed which would be a shame and a crime. But as they say that's the way the cookie crumbles.
No I was not trying to be/do anti american propaganda, there are already lots of folks doing that. No need for myself to jump on that band wagon. Just stating facts. I do find it interesting that everyone who points fingers in their own little way seem to be the ones that forget history, distort knowledge, claim it for their own, and just do not and refuse to believe that they could do anything like their perceived 'enemies'.
And yes I am in complete agreement that replicas should be made then the originals returned. I also have a problem with human remains being on public display. It just does not seem right.
2 wrongs do not make a right
what nonsense there was no mass looting in Vietnam,for one the people who owned anything were elite Catholics and they weer quite adept at retaining their resources but nice anti American propaganda. US troop had little or no contact with the affluent Vietnamese except a ARVN here and there
I will tell you this if YOu send those articles back to Africa there si av ery good chanc e they will eb destroyed by on or more Islamic groups in time.Every ethnic group thinks it superior ask the Tibetans about the Chinese,or the Rwandans, i would like to see all such antiquities reproduced and put inot museum but have them preserved inthe original in some site that is safe much like the seeds stored in Norway.
I would also like to stop seeing human remains on displays in museums,once again replicas holograms etc could be used.Yes British were racists,as are Chinese, Japanese etc and so on.
How can you say hieroglyphics where not invented by ancient Egyptians. The writings in meso are chicken scratch compared to 100 Years later a fully mastered manuscript of writing in ancient egypt and still not yet mastered in Meso
Hieroglyphs are often interpreted in historical terms but they also and clearly represents astronomical and cosmological knowledge.
Take the Egyptian Story of Creation, the Ogdoad, which describes the basic and eternal cosmological conditions and the factual creation, not of the entire Universe wich is considered eternal, but of the ancient known part of it, our Milky Way galaxy.
In this telling, the Egyptian god Atum-Ra creates everything together from the basic elements and as Atum-Ra is closely connected to the Egyptian Mother Goddess Hathor, who resembles the Milky Way on the southern hemisphere, the Ogdoad story of creation clearly deals with the creation of the Milky Way and thus also of our Solar System.
This story of creation is of course also mentioned in hieroglyphs and religions all over the world and they represents the human common cosmological knowledge of creation.
Links:
The Ogdoad – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogdoad_(Egyptian)#The_Egyptian_Ogdoad
Goddess Hathor – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hathor#Relationships.2C_associations.2C_images.2C_and_symbols
Both sides are not being quite honest about their true arguments and standing. This has nothing at all to do with the past or racism. It stems from a more recent and forever lingering Limey versus Frenchy...Anglican versus Catholic animosity issue.
Always ask what is being held in the hand behind their back...not the one they are showing you...
Mr Charles Larou, I am curious as to what you would call the following; With the onset of WW2 when American citizens of Japanese ancestry where arrested and interned in internment camps. Where they had their property seized, personal possession/family heirlooms confiscated ( seized ), business forced to close or being forced to sell their business and or possessions sold off at a ‘discount’ price. Please note; that when these possessions were seized and sold off the ‘money’ was not given to those who had their property/businesses/family heirlooms sold off. Was any of this ever returned with an apology or was the money made off the sales put into escrow and given to them when released from prison/jail, oh sorry from internment.
The same thing happened in Canada. Everything seized, taken and never returned.
Sorry to far into the past for you……. Flash forward then. What about during the Vietnam war. What was taken from the local’s, family heirlooms, museums etc. by the French and or Americans.
What was stolen in the final days with the Americans being kicked out and the massive confusion of trying to get people and their possessions out. What’s that called.
Sorry still too far in the past for you. O.K., lets flash forward again.
What about the American and Allies invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq. What about the reports of the looting of museums, of homes, of artifact's being stolen by various individuals and ‘government officials’. What was, is this called. What happy term, political correct word would YOU like to use for this.
Sorry, still too far back in time for you. What is going on right now? How many ‘legal’ expeditions are being conducted at this very moment. What about the ‘illegal’ looting of sites- where strange as it sounds some of these artifacts find their way into ‘public museum’s’ or private collections. What is, are you wanting to call this.
Just to let you know and please inquire for yourself it is well known that the theft of ‘art’ and ‘artifacts’ is a very ‘lucrative business’ which a lot of folks, legitimate people etc and not so legitimate people participate in. The same with many ‘institutions’.
So what fuzzy wuzzy warm word/term/concept, do you want to use for your sense of rationalization justification of what was and is being done? To ease your mind, to foster and legitimize all of this plundering, theft, stealing--- come on tell us, what?
By the way do you notice a pattern in all this. Do you, have you noticed a pattern from the past, specifically the last 150 years.
The pattern is all ( most ) of this is done by Europeans or those from other countries with a strong European ancestry. Is this not ‘rooted’ with the Europeans colonization/invasions of other countries world wide with the attitude of ‘we’ are better, we are stronger, we are superior.
Which in turn is rooted in the Christian belief pattern that if ‘you’ are not a Christian you are an ignorant, stupid heathen savage, not intelligent enough to have ……..??????
Let’s not forget and again please do the research for yourself, but that which we call today ‘modern archaeology’ its core root starts with a bunch of professionals of Christian faith background taking the Bible and travelling to the Levant/Middle East with the intent of; If we can prove that cities, sites, individuals mentioned in the bible, that all of this is ‘true’, then it stands to ‘reason’ that Jesus the Christ was a ‘real person’, oh sorry that ‘he’ was living and present in the past and was/is the ‘son of god’ our lord and saviour.
Further; I am not “Trying to view history through today’s goggles” as you put it. Rather I read/learn of our collective past/history. I read/learn about our collective mistakes and atrocities etc, and try not to allow, ask how can we, what can we do today to amend for what was done in the past, and please do not be so ignorant to believe that this is NOT happening at this very moment.
A side note; Are you foolish enough to believe that what ever country you are living in at this very moment, that there is not to a certain degree some ‘social engineering’ going on. Today we like to call it in our sense of superiority, (pseudo ) democracy.
Are we never going to learn from our collective past? Are we forever ‘doomed’ to continue to repeat our past? When do we stop? How do we go about bringing the changes required? YOU TELL ME.
First I believed in UFOs, then I thought the distances between the stars were too great for any civilization to cross, and now I wonder if they possibly could do it. I also wonder if it hadn't been for the long reign of the dinosaurs we, or somebody like us, might have evolved on earth 200 million years ago and we'd be a civilization traveling elsewhere across space. Would we be somebody else's ancient astronauts or gods?
LOVE ANCIENT HISTORY FROM EVERY CULTURE
Thanks for your comment – very interesting. My article and book is really only about progress of Isis cult in classical period of Romans and Greek world. There were of course other points of contact between India and the Near East at various times before this – for example the Indus Valley Culture traded with – the flow of ideas is two ways for sure. Not forgetting the common ground instanced in what one might call the Aryan “invasion” It is a particular interest of mine to document some of the similarities between Indian religion/philosophy and the Egyptian. The goddess Ishtar is Syrian & was indeed worshipped in Egypt after the Syrian conquest of Egypt but Isis was a native deity with far longer history – imo
Consider that if these items where not sitting in a museum any museum that they may have lost in the vast void of time never to be seen again Perhaps some have been rescued from just such a fate
The British Museum secured these artifacts long before most people realized the significance of these items were determined. This gives us an opportunity to view history through their eyes and how they viewed the world in their era. I really do not care about the social mores of the people who dig up the artifacts. the story is on the wall at the museum. By rewriting history will not change a thing.
In addition, comparing scientific research to nazi plunder is really a step beyond the pale. I find Archaeology a far more legitimate science then Social Engineering.
Stop trying to view history through today's gogles.
After the DNA test check to find if any decedents are still around.
I think you’re expecting too much since the country in question is being questioned about its violations of the Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities, but its hardly surprising since learning about kings and queens is considered more important than localised history. I believe the Isle of Mann and Scotland have had their requests for objects to be returned refused too.
".....Lundén’s research also shows that the museum’s scholars did not help change the view of Africans. Instead they spread and gave scientific legitimisation to the stock stereotypes of Africans, such as the likening of Blacks to apes....."
It also helped to further lend legitimacy to the degradation of the black race through the biblical curse of the fictional Noah character, wherein his son Ham was cursed to be the father of Canaan, which was mistranslated to the 'black race'.
Excellent article and beautiful photos BTW.
The book “The Rise of Christianity and the Proscription of Paganism” by Maude Huttman accurately lays out the ‘method’ by which Christianity rose to power. The book is actually a study of ‘economics’, ironically enough.
Between the years 300 and 500 a series of laws and decrees were enacted by Constantine and his successors which effectively outlawed non-christian beliefs to the point that you could be put the death for practicing the old ways. You could not own property or have a will. You could not hold employment of any meaningful position, etc,etc. It wasn’t the “message of the gentle Prince of Peace” that gave christianity its appeal. It was the threat of death to you and your family.
Right! The Big 3. And I edit, intentionally, and do not capitalize.
“…..The sardonyx stone in the papyrus casket it was carried in…..”
The Department of Redundancy Department
Islam falls under "the Abrahamic religions".
Many objects in such Museums would have long since vanished into private collections or been destroyed (not uncommon for stones from monuments etc to be removed for building construction) if they hadn't been taken by the British.. Does that justify their being taken / stolen in the first place? No.. but it's still the reality and it's lucky they were taken before such a fate could happen.
Just a shame that many of the objects in places like Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Mali weren't taken before they were destroyed. Such things are the worlds heritage as much as that of the area where they were found.
Pages