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  • Reply to: Pre-Columbian Murals and Norse Sagas Suggest Vikings Met the Aztecs, and the Outcome Was Not Pretty   7 years 5 months ago
    Comment Author: Clyde Winters

    Stop trying to make yourself right. The first thing I used to teach my students in the Research Course they had to take to earn a Master Degree, was to critically  read the article  you intead to cite in a research paper. The Abstract of an article does not tell everything written in the article itself. The quotation from the article I cited above proves that you only read Abstracts instead of doing actual research.

  • Reply to: Pre-Columbian Murals and Norse Sagas Suggest Vikings Met the Aztecs, and the Outcome Was Not Pretty   7 years 5 months ago
    Comment Author: Clyde Winters

    Stop making things up. We don’t know where the Aztecs originated. Moreover, Nahuatl  is Aztec language, Other people adopted the language which was used as a lingua franca in Cantral Mexico because it was the language of the Elites and government.

  • Reply to: Pre-Columbian Murals and Norse Sagas Suggest Vikings Met the Aztecs, and the Outcome Was Not Pretty   7 years 5 months ago
    Comment Author: Clyde Winters

    Stop lying, El Dorado means “The Golden”, literally in Spanish, not “the golden one”. stick to the theme of this article: Blacks and whites in ancient Mexico, not the search for El Dorado in South America and Florida.

  • Reply to: Pre-Columbian Murals and Norse Sagas Suggest Vikings Met the Aztecs, and the Outcome Was Not Pretty   7 years 5 months ago
    Comment Author: Clyde Winters

    Sickle cell disease (SCD) is an inherited/genetic  red blood cell disorders carried by Black people. it can not spontaneously appear among non-Blacks.

    Moore,S. (1929). The Bone Change in Sickle Cell Anemia with A Note on Similar Changes Observed in Skulls of Ancient Mayan Indians,Jour of Missouri Medical Association, 26:561, is a standard work in Osteoarchaeology. Scientist use Moore's work to teach students how to recognize anemias from skeletal remains see: https://www.academia.edu/3289772/Thalassemia_macroscopic_and_radiologica...

    To make it appear that  SCD does not indicate a population  that is Black you claim that Moore's work is no longer relevant yet , A. LAGIA,* C. ELIOPOULOS AND S. MANOLIS,Thalassemia: Macroscopic and Radiological Study of a Case,   https://www.academia.edu/3289772/Thalassemia_macroscopic_and_radiological_study_of_a_case

    explains how important the Moore paper is in understanding how to identify anemias in skeletal remains. In addition Moore's work is discussed in  Whittington, S. L., & Reed, D. M. (1997). Bones of the Maya: Studies of ancient skeletons. Washington, D.C: Smithonian Institution Press ; and  Wailoo, Keith. (2002). Drawing Blood: Technology and Disease Identity in Twentieth-Century America. JHU Press. The Lagia et al article was published in 2007 , this shows that the Moore article is still referenced by Osteoarchaeologists.
    Sickle cell anemia in ancient Mayan skeletons proves that there were Black Mayan tribes. We know there were Black Mayan tribes because 1) only Sub-Saharan Africans carry sickle cell anemia, and 2) Quatrefages (1889) reported that members of the Mayan Chontal tribe were Negroes or Black.

  • Reply to: Pre-Columbian Murals and Norse Sagas Suggest Vikings Met the Aztecs, and the Outcome Was Not Pretty   7 years 5 months ago
    Comment Author: Willy

    Actually, the Aztecs did not enter the Valley of Anahuac until about 1300 ad nor was Nahuatl their native tongue. Previous to 1300 ad the Aztecs were living a transhuman existence in the deserts of north central Mexico. They are most likely cousins of the Huichol and related groups collectively referred to by the common Nahuatl term "Chichimeca" which loosely translated means sons of bitches and refers to their tendency to dress in dog skin. They adopted Nahuatl during their stint as mercenaries among the cities of the lake Texcoco. The fabled homeland of the Chichimeca was a pace called Aztlan which may or may not have really existed. From folk descriptions Aztlan would have appeared to have been somewhere between the Mississippi river and Florida and possibly as far north as Tennessee.

  • Reply to: Pre-Columbian Murals and Norse Sagas Suggest Vikings Met the Aztecs, and the Outcome Was Not Pretty   7 years 5 months ago
    Comment Author: Willy

    Well then, he must be Asian 'cause his skin is CLEARLY yellow. LOL, you really crack me up. WHY would I want to deny the presence of whites in ancient Mexico? The hallmark of good science is following the FACTS to their logical conclusion. Should facts that contradict my beliefs present them selves I am perfectly comfortable with modifying my beliefs to match the facts. I have done it many times and will, no doubt, do it again. THAT's how science is done. You begin with a conclusion and then cherry pic your facts to support your beliefs while ignoring any data that upset your mental apple cart. THAT is more akin to creation "science". IF...if some solid, factual information should come to light elucidating the presence of Africans and/or Europeans in the ancient Americas I will be among the first to pick up that ball and run with it. Until then, I will call bull shit on your pseudo-scientific ranting where ever I come across it. Your ravings are right up there with Ancient Aliens and Atlantis fantasies.

  • Reply to: Pre-Columbian Murals and Norse Sagas Suggest Vikings Met the Aztecs, and the Outcome Was Not Pretty   7 years 5 months ago
    Comment Author: Willy

    Well, Looks like Wailoo and Whittingham et al simply reference Moore 1929. Therefore, they are redundant to this discussion. Way to pad the old bibliography. As to Moore 1929, I have yet to find it online. Provide a link and I'll be happy to read it. What I have gleaned in my efforts suggests that the paper notes that a Mayan skull was found that showed bone pathology reminiscent of that found in SCD. Hardly "proof" that SCD was found in an ancient Mayan skull. BTW, you are aware that SCD is found in populations as well as Africans? Seems like it spontaneously developed in at least 4 separate regions of the planet.

  • Reply to: Pre-Columbian Murals and Norse Sagas Suggest Vikings Met the Aztecs, and the Outcome Was Not Pretty   7 years 5 months ago
    Comment Author: Willy

    Actually, the Mazateca and the Olmeca have an area of overlap in the coastal region of Veracruz.They both seem to share a relationship with the Zapotec and the Maya as well.

  • Reply to: Pre-Columbian Murals and Norse Sagas Suggest Vikings Met the Aztecs, and the Outcome Was Not Pretty   7 years 5 months ago
    Comment Author: Willy

    It is painfully obvious that you have only a weak grasp of modern genomic techniques and results. Your scientific acumen seems to have ossified sometime in the late 90s. Yes, Genomic studies do indeed trump Morphometrics and, they always will. There are a multitude of factors which can and do influence the shape and size of the human skull. these influences can be genetic, dietary, environmental and even cultural. Often times, multiple factors come into play. These can influence bone robustisity, density and shape. The ONLY way to determine, without doubt, the affinities of a bone is through genomic analysis. Morphometric analysis is basically the equivalent of an educated guess and while it can augment genomic analysis, on it's own it's pretty useless unless there is no genetic material to analyze. Take, for example the titles of the articles you've posted above.3 of the 4 have the term Morphological "Affinities" in the title. Now, what is the scientific meaning of the term "Affinities"?

    .a similarity of characteristics SUGGESTING a relationship, especially a RESEMBLANCE in structure between animals, plants, or languages.
    synonyms: similarity, resemblance, likeness, kinship, relationship, association, link, analogy, similitude, correspondence.

    Notice that NO WHERE does it say "denoting" or "demonstrating" a relationship?

    Look at the synonyms. Most are analogous to "suggesting". Some are a bit stronger as with "kinship" and "relationship" but, these terms are more likely to appear in a linguistics paper than one discussing the ancient art of crainiometry and there's a VERY good reason for that. That reason dates back the the 18th and 19th century when scientists attempted to reify a hierarchical theory of race. Of curse, these "scientists"came up with a chart that placed western Europeans at the top and Africans at the bottom with the so called "mongoloid races", Semitic peoples and Eastern Europeans occupying various rungs on the ladder of progress all based upon...CRANIOMETRIC ANALYSIS". Confirmation bias allowed western Europeans to put their "finger on the scale" and, as Stephen Gould so eloquently put it "Mismeasure Man". The first round was all about Cranial Capacity", A bigger brain was OBVIOUSLY a better brain. Of course, it was soon discovered that researchers had been under loading African skulls all along which gave the impression of a smaller brain. Remeasuring soon proved that African skulls were just as capacious ad European ones. Next came skull shape. Long skulls were, it was said, less desirable than round ones as round ones OBVIOUSLY had a greater proportion of frontal lobe than long ones and as most Western Europeans had round skulls... But...OOPS! Seems it turned out that British Skulls tended to be long. No problem, just change the theory. long skulls were suddenly very vogue.In the end it turned out that the shape of the skull was simply TOO VARIABLE to be of any use in this matter. Seems there is so much overlap that all skull types are represented in all populations. Yes, there are a few hallmarks that can be useful in assigning a skull to a CONTEMPORARY population but over all, skull shape is a bust. Genetics on the other hand, pretty much work EVERY TIME. Genes are not subject to the same environmental influences that bones are and due to the rules of inheritance and known mutation rates, genes make a damn good map of the human diaspora. In other words, you can use genotypes to trace the migration of human groups in space AND time with a great level of accuracy. One that is simply not possible with Morphometrics.

  • Reply to: Pre-Columbian Murals and Norse Sagas Suggest Vikings Met the Aztecs, and the Outcome Was Not Pretty   7 years 5 months ago
    Comment Author: Willy

    From the abstract of the above article: " In the present study
    we have been able to uncover that Amerindians apparently do
    not relate with any other worldwide population, according to
    their HLA genetic profile"

    From the discussion:

    "Neighbour-Joining and correspondence analyses were
    done by putting together many worldwide and American
    populations (Figs. 2, 3, 4). Both analyses show again that
    Amerindians (Meso and South American) are not genetically
    related to Na-Dene (Athabaskan) and Eskimos. Also,
    Amerindians do not show relationships with Polynesians,
    Australians [almost discarding a massive Pacific colonization,
    as suggested in(16)], Caucasoids or African Blacks. However,
    our Bolivian Quechua population shows some HLA
    relationship with Na-Dene and Asiatic populations (see
    results), reflecting both possible cultural and genetic contacts
    with these populations."

    Seems pretty clear that he has NOT changed his mind.

  • Reply to: Pre-Columbian Murals and Norse Sagas Suggest Vikings Met the Aztecs, and the Outcome Was Not Pretty   7 years 5 months ago
    Comment Author: Clyde Winters

    The point is that the man being sacrficed was not covered with gold dust as you claim; and that he was not El Dorado, the ‘golden one’ as you also falsely claimed. This was made up by you to deny the presence of whites in ancient Mexico.

  • Reply to: Pre-Columbian Murals and Norse Sagas Suggest Vikings Met the Aztecs, and the Outcome Was Not Pretty   7 years 5 months ago
    Comment Author: Clyde Winters

    You are such a liar, if the bones show evidence of sickle cell—the person had sickle cell.. I did not write about Sickle Cell Anemia among the Maya it was Moore, Wailoo and Whittington. 

    Moore,S. (1929). The Bone Change in Sickle Cell Anemia with A Note on Similar Changes Observed in Skulls of Ancient Mayan Indians, Journal  of Missouri Medical Association, 26:561

    Wailoo, Keith. (2002). Drawing Blood: Technology and Disease Identity in Twentieth-Century America. JHU Press.

    Whittington, S. L., & Reed, D. M. (1997). Bones of the Maya: Studies of ancient skeletons. Washington, D.C: Smithonian Institution Press.

  • Reply to: Pre-Columbian Murals and Norse Sagas Suggest Vikings Met the Aztecs, and the Outcome Was Not Pretty   7 years 5 months ago
    Comment Author: Willy

    Um...Definition #1 is pretty much what I said and Definition #2 is a modern adaptation. What's your point? As I mentioned in another post, the search for El Dorado was the driving force behind much of the Spanish exploration of North, South and Central America. I would also add the point (again) that the "city of gold" is a bastardization of the cultural practice. Sees the story grew with the telling as these stories so often do. None of this changes the FACT that El Dorado translates as The Golden One and refers to a person rather than a city.

  • Reply to: Pre-Columbian Murals and Norse Sagas Suggest Vikings Met the Aztecs, and the Outcome Was Not Pretty   7 years 5 months ago
    Comment Author: Clyde Winters

    There is no evidence the Mazatecans  were Olmecs. It was pure speculation by Arnaiz-Villena that the Mazatecans  were descendants of the Olmecs . The Olmec lived along the Gulf coast, the Mazatecans  live in Southern Mexico.

  • Reply to: Pre-Columbian Murals and Norse Sagas Suggest Vikings Met the Aztecs, and the Outcome Was Not Pretty   7 years 5 months ago
    Comment Author: Willy

    Well Clyde, I keep trying to varify your claims but mostly I get sent to articles written by...Clyde Winters! When I check your bibliography most of the articles are pretty hard to find. Most are VERY outdated and rely upon ancient methodologies. You claim to have proof for instance, to have "proof" of sickle cell trait in ancient Maya. However, the article only notes "similarities" between the bones of known sufferers of SCT and the skulls of Maya. This is NOT proof of Sickle Cell Trait in the Maya but rather, a similarity in bone structure. It's gonna take me a while to get through your alphabet soup but, I'm pretty sure I'll be finding the same results.

  • Reply to: Pre-Columbian Murals and Norse Sagas Suggest Vikings Met the Aztecs, and the Outcome Was Not Pretty   7 years 5 months ago
    Comment Author: Clyde Winters

    Genetics do not supercede skeletal remains. Any member of a population can carry a particular haplogroup—but skeletal remains provide the ethnic identification of a population. In the 1960’s there  was a return to the study of craniometric quantitative analysis and  multivariate methods to determine the Native American population (Neves ,  Powell and Ozolins,  1998,1999a,199b; Powell, 2005). This research indicated that the ancient Americans represent two populations, paleoamericans who were phenotypically African, Australian or Melanesian and a mongoloid population that appears to have arrived in the Americas after 6000 BC. 
    References:

    Neves W.A . and Pucciarelli H.M. 1991. "Morphological Affinities of the First Americans: an exploratory analysis based on early South American human remains". Journal of Human Evolution 21:261-273.

    Neves W.A ., Powell J.F. and Ozolins E.G. 1999. "Extra-continental morphological affinities of Lapa Vermelha IV Hominid 1: A multivariate analysis with progressive numbers of variables. Homo 50:263-268

     Neves W.A ., Powell J.F. and Ozolins E.G. 1999. "Extra-continental morphological affinities of Palli-Aike, Southern Chile". Interciencia 24:258-263. http://www.interciencia.org/v24_04/neves.pdf

    Powell,J.F. (2005). First Americans:Races, Evolution  and the Origin of Native Americans. Cambridge University Press.

  • Reply to: Pre-Columbian Murals and Norse Sagas Suggest Vikings Met the Aztecs, and the Outcome Was Not Pretty   7 years 5 months ago
    Comment Author: Clyde Winters

     

    You cited an article written by Arnaiz-Villena in 2000, he has changed his view on the presence of Blacks in Mexico. He wrote:

     All of these data should not be disregarded, because all of them should help to account for the true peopling history and First Native Americans’ relatedness. In fact, the true scenario may altogether be different and more complicated than foreseen since there are archaeological indications that Caucasoids(48), African Blacks(49), and other populations(17,50) may have all been among the First Native Americans. Particularly, Negroids are reported in the First Spanish Chronicles, as seen by Spanish Conquerors in Meso-America, Caribbean and the north-western area of South America(49). In fact, many scholars are increasingly doubtful that fullblown Olmec, Toltec, Mayan and Peruvian cultures (otherwise similar to Egyptian culture in certain aspects) appeared without external contact(18,48,49,51). Moreover, the most ancient archaeological American sites are far from the postulated entrance door: the Bering strait (Monteverde, Chile; Peña Furada, Brazil)(51,52).

    Arnaiz-Villena,A, Moscoso, J.,Serrano-Vela,I. (2006).The uniqueness of Amerindians according to HLA genes and the peopling of the Americas. http://www.inmunologia.org/Upload/Articles/6/7/678.pdf

    4.

  • Reply to: Pre-Columbian Murals and Norse Sagas Suggest Vikings Met the Aztecs, and the Outcome Was Not Pretty   7 years 5 months ago
    Comment Author: Clyde Winters

    Stop lying you made up a definition of El Dorado to confuse readers.This article is about the Maya and Aztecs, not South Americans.

    El Dorado | Definition of El Dorado by Merriam-Webster
    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/El%20Dorado1 : a city or country of fabulous riches held by 16th century explorers to exist in South America. 2 : a place of fabulous wealth or opportunity. See words that ...
     

  • Reply to: Pre-Columbian Murals and Norse Sagas Suggest Vikings Met the Aztecs, and the Outcome Was Not Pretty   7 years 5 months ago
    Comment Author: Willy

    I think you should review the meaning of the term "proof". NONE of these article "prove" anything. They all make the same basic claim: these skeletons "look like" African skeletons. This claim is meaningless in the face of modern genomic studies which have proven conclusively that there is no African genetic component in ancient America. Period.Perhaps you should put aside your preconceived notions and read some studies from THIS century?

  • Reply to: Pre-Columbian Murals and Norse Sagas Suggest Vikings Met the Aztecs, and the Outcome Was Not Pretty   7 years 5 months ago
    Comment Author: Willy

    LOL, Lies? Ashamed? Listen Hoss, El Dorado LITERALLY translates as The Golden One. Y...yo hablo Espanol. Yes, I mentioned the Musica of Columbis as well as the Maya. That's because the European myth of El Dorado is based upon garbled stories So America, Mesoamerica and Even No America. De Soto was looking for El Dorado in Florida! The origin of the myth is from BOTH areas so I mentioned the connection. I thought THAT was pretty darn obvious but, I guess you missed it.

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