Artist’s representation of underwater ruins.

The Exceptional Underwater City of Cuba: A New Theory on its Origins – Part I

(Read the article on one page)

(Read Part II here )

In his Underworld: The Mysterious Origins of Civilization , Graham Hancock examines the numerous structures that have been discovered underwater around the world. Most of the sites that Hancock discusses lie less than 120 meters (395 feet) below sea level, which comes as no surprise since the sea level never fell below this mark during the time Homo sapiens walked the earth. Submerged over 700 meters (2300 feet) underwater, the Cuban city discovered by Paulina Zelitsky and Paul Weinzweig during a joint Cuban-Canadian expedition is the singular exception.

Overturning Old Theories

How can the existence of this underwater city at this great depth be reconciled with the well-established consensus that the sea level never dropped so low? In Hancock’s own words: “What one would not expect to find in water anywhere near as deep as 700 meters would be a sunken city - unless it had been submerged by some colossal tectonic event rather than by rising sea levels.”

Reconstructed Image from the sonar scan of the sea floor off the coast of Cuba.

Reconstructed Image from the sonar scan of the sea floor off the coast of Cuba.

However, the hypothesis that the city was originally built at a higher altitude and subsequently sunk to its present depth through tectonic activity has not stood up to the scrutiny of the experts. Grenville Draper of Florida International University considers it highly unlikely that such an event could have occurred: “Nothing of this magnitude has been reported, even from the Mediterranean…”

Supposing Draper’s remarks rejecting the likelihood of the city having submerged are reliable, we are compelled to accept that the city was built at more or less the same depth that the city is located now. In other words, we are faced with the patently absurd conclusion that the structures were built underwater! Though proponents of the aquatic ape theory may beg to differ, it is clear that we have reached an impasse. Could there be an alternative theory that satisfactorily accounts for these structures at such depths?

Great Seas and Vast Depths

On the opposite site of the Atlantic Ocean from the Caribbean Sea is the Mediterranean Sea. Dividing Europe and Africa, the Mediterranean Sea is an enormous sea - over 2,500,000 km2 (965,255 square miles) that has, at least within the timeline of anatomically modern man, always existed. For millennia, ships of successive great nations and empires sailed the Mediterranean; the Phoenicians, Greeks, Carthaginians, and Romans among them. In 146 BC, owing to its victories in the Punic Wars against Carthage, Rome achieved what no known civilization had hitherto achieved; namely, the control of the entire Mediterranean Sea by a single power.

Map of the Mediterranean Sea with subdivisions, straits, islands and countries

Map of the Mediterranean Sea with subdivisions, straits, islands and countries ( CC BY-SA 4.0 )

The Romans, rightly so, called the sea that they ruled over  mare nostrum –  “our sea”. Could the Romans have ever imagined that “their” sea, long before the dawn of man, was once a dry and landlocked basin? Indeed, they may very well have. In Natural History, Pliny mentions in passing a tradition of the inhabitants near the Straits of Gibraltar: “they also believe that [The Straits of Gibraltar] were dug through by him; upon which the sea, which was before excluded, gained admission, and so changed the face of nature.”

Historic map of the Strait of Gibraltar by Piri Reis.

Historic map of the Strait of Gibraltar by Piri Reis. ( Public Domain )

Could it be that the Caribbean Sea has a similar geological history as the Mediterranean Sea? That is, could the Caribbean Sea have been a dry basin, and could it have been so during the existence of anatomically modern man? Having performed an exhaustive search on the topic, I couldn't find a single source within the alternative literature let alone a peer-reviewed scientific paper that put forth such a hypothesis. However implausible this hypothesis may be, if true, it would provide a simple and elegant solution to the problem discussed, namely that of how a city could have been built close to 700 meters (2300 feet) below sea level today, or 580 meters (1900 feet) below sea level even during the maximum drawdown of the world's oceans. If the Caribbean Sea simply did not exist for an extended period of time in the human past, a reasonably advanced civilization inhabiting the area could have built cities on dry land thousands of feet below sea level, even over ten thousand feet below sea level.

Map of the Caribbean Sea and Basin

Map of the Caribbean Sea and Basin ( Public Domain )


Am interested in any ET archaeology and any quite-old 100,000 + BCE Earth archaeology & anthropology

The earth only 6000 years old. Created by God. Watch Kent Hovinds movies.

I hope you're joking...

Why would you ask if he joking? Do you have some irrefutable proof that this is not the case?


Irrefutable proof? Can you give an example of what you would consider to be ”irrefutable proof”?

The base stance for humans is that we don’t know anything the world/universe. What is the most reasonable way known to find out things about the world/universe we live in? Study them using the scientific method - anything else is way too arbitrary. The studies done about the age of the Earth conducted using these methods (for example radiometric dating and carbon-14 dating) points to the Earth being about 4.6 billion years old.

”The topic of radiometric dating has received some of the most vicious attacks by young earth creation science theorists. However, none of the criticisms of young earth creationists have any scientific merit. Radiometric dating remains a reliable scientific method.” - See more at:

That quote even comes from a site ran by people who claim to be ”Biblical Creationists”.

We also have the carbon-14 method.

The link above funnily enough refutes claims about the method made by Kent Hovind (his movies we were recommended by David Keller in the post I reacted to above).

This is also educational: ”How do scientists determine the age of dinosaur bones?”:

There’s a lot to read about this out there.

”The mystery of God was revealed in flesh, seen for the first time by celestial beings referred to as Angels. Told of to the world and believed either accept that or you do not.”

And where is the evidence for that? How do we know it’s about ”the mystery of God”? I never understand how some can be so sceptical about all the scientific method finds, but when it comes to other things gullibility seems to be perfectly fine. :-|

Bronzesnake's picture

There is an incredible wealth of evidence which is corroborating some of the most "unbelievable" Biblical "history" from the scriptures.
There is a documentary called "Patterns of Evidence" which makes an airtight argument based on real observational, touchable evidence for the Exodus happening exactly as detailed in scriptures down the minute detail.
Several people have actually gone to Egypt and following the scriptures exclusively, have discovered some satellite evidence from the Guldfwar I era, where satellites were used to mark the exact locations of Saddumb's tanks which he foolishly believed were invisible because they were buried in sand up-to the turrets.
Satellites saw the heat coming off the tanks, marked their GPS coordinates, and wiped every last tank out with stunning precision and in short order!
Well the satellites saw other extremely interesting things. A "red" trail which exactly mimicked the scriptural accounts of exactly where the Hebrews went, and traced the trail to the only finger/peninsula of land between Egypt and Saudi Arabia "Median" which could easily accommodate millions of people and live stock.
From that location, the Biblical account describes a large group of panicked people, who believed they were trapped by the mountains they had just managed to find their way through to this beach head, and the Sea of Aqaba the "Red Sea"
The sea is about a mile deep directly off shore, but an amazing discovery has been documented, via satellite imagery and under water video, which shows a gentle 6 degree slope leading to a massive under water natural road/bridge which goes from Egypt's shore, across to Saudi Arabia's shore, rising up at another 6 degree slope!
Their has also been several eye witnesses accounts and video shot in the location, showing this incredible bridge, as well as the five thousand foot drop off on either side of this road/bridge.
Well wouldn't you know t, they filmed wreckage of chariots, chariot wheels, with 4 - 6 - and 8 spoke versions.
They filmed mangled carriages for the chariots, and skeletal remains of humans and horses strewn on the sea floor, for over a mile, from Egypt all the way across to the Saudi shores!!
One of the chariot wheels was recovered and taken to the Egyptian museum, knowing this is the greatest archaeological discovery of a life time, surpassing even Tut's tomb!
A curator saw the wheel and immediately approached the men and stated (paraphrasing)  "that's an 18th century 6 spoke chariot wheel, where did you get it"?
When the answer was given, the wheel was very quietly, and hurriedly whisked deep, deep into the archives where it will no doubt ever been heard of, or seen again.
Something tells me the Muslims don't want that kind of inconvenient truth muddying up the religious waters.
Since then, a 4 spoke, gold plated chariot wheels has also been discovered and filmed vi video, however the divers stated they will not be recovering any further artifacts, at least not until the mindset changes, if and when.
The satellite imagery followed the red )heat) signature through Saudi Arabia, and straight to the base of the real Mount Sini! The evidence recovered and being recovered is stunning. I'll leave links.
The top of the mountain which is mostly red or pink granite, is pitch black!
Wow, that lines up with scriptures stating God came to the mountain top in a fire.
Of course desperate "skeptics" are scrambling for excuses, and the black rocks are "obviously" volcanic dummies!
Well, ahhh no! They're not. There is video from at least two and maybe three independent sources from people who were actually on the top of the mountain, and they filmed themselves smashing open black rocks and they were all red or pink granite inside! Those rocks were burnt!!
There are at least three thousand graves there. A huge 4 story anomalous rock standing up and split down the center, and clearly observable water erosion from that huge rock, which poured out in the midst of the Sini desert, and there is a dry lake bed where the spring had drained out which would easily have accommodated all the Hebrews and their live stock.
The twelve marble pillars were found - the alter to the Egyptian idol calf was fond with glyphs of the Egyptian cow god depicted a couple of dozen times.
There is stills and video shot of all of this.
The scriptures describe God commanding Moses to build an alter from "un-worked" rock - and yes that has also been documented. The alter was the exact dimensions described in scriptures.
Blood samples and other genetic tests confirmed that cows were slaughtered and burnt there.
God told Moses to set marking boulders around the entire base of the mountain and that any who passed them up the mountain would be instantly dealt with. Documented.
Elija's cave - documented
There are over 30,000 ancient arrow heads of various types, all from Egyptian styles.
The footprint of hundreds of thousands of tents, with the boulders still on the ground in exact formation to this day - Documented!
I could go on and on!
This is stunning, and one would really be forced to lie in order to make it go away.
Add this to the huge skeletons which have been discovered all over the world, yes even in North America from over 7 feet to 35 feet tall skeletons detailed in major, reliable serious news papers from the day.
The Smithsonian would hear about these discoveries, swoop in and take over and the skeletons have never been seen again. But, d a Google Search kids, for giant skeletons in America, and you'll see hundreds of news articles.
Then think about these huge elongated skulls, which are not cradle boarded. The ones I refer to have anywhere from 20 to 35% greater brain capacity and are enormous. Some have double rows of teeth!
A single parietal plate, and no sagittal suture!
Google them.
DNA testing is under way and the greatest paleontological discovery has been made from ALL human history, because there is a human mother in the DNA but no father and UNKNOWN DNA!!!!
Don't trust me, check for yourselfish.
These are the "Nephilim" described in Genesis 6, and detailed by secular sources such as Josephus.
Yes, I will leave links.
There is no excuse for any of us to doubt the Holy Bible in this day and age. None of the so called other religious texts, have anything that even hints at this depth of corroboration, and from secular sources as well!!
There is NO EXCUSES kids. You WILL make an account for your faith or lack of faith to Almighty God one day, we all die. You DO NOT  want to leave this even another second longer. People die inside of a split second every day kids...yes, even perfectly healthy people.
Underwater bridge -

Chariot parts in 5,000 feet deep water in Red Sea
Giant Skeletons -
Giant Elongated Skulls -
Elongated Skulls DNA Testing Results
There is a lot here to deny, or claim "hoax" out of hand kids.
This evidence is powerful, and proves who God is. Accept Jesus Christ before t's too late for you brothers and sisters. I pray that all who are truly trying to find THE truth, will find this outstanding, amazing evidence to be exactly what you've been looking for to help you accept Jesus Christ!!
I'm not posting these to be "right" or better than anyone else or for any other reason except for to be obeying Almighty God's command to help lead His lost children back home.
God is a loving Father, but He is also a fair and honourable judge, and He can't say of "Bill...he's done alright, I'll let his sentencing slide...right?
He will NOT force anyone to accept Him, or His free gift.
So, some believe they have been "good" and have never hurt anyone intentionally, or drank booze, did drugs etc. God will let me in...well, no, actually no He won't.
Imagine some dirty sketchy man knocks on your door, and he wants to move in because he heard you were really greta, generous people and so he hasn't hurt you, or done anything against you and so you'd let him move straight in right?
Even if you let the man spend the night - would you leave your teenaged daughter's bedroom door opened?
No! Because if God lets an unsaved, unwashed "good" person into Heaven, he would very quickly infect everything in Heaven because he has a commutable disease - sin.
So what about this scenario - A friend calls to invite you to a party at his new house, and he gives you very specific directions. His new house is on a dead end street and there's only one route from your house to get here, and so if you turn left on Coalfield Road, instead of right you will not find the house and you will miss the party. See, because "all roads don't led to my new house" just as all roads don't lead to God's house right?
There is but one way to God and that is through Jesus Christ my brothers and sisters.
The cost of sin is death. Jesus Christ "GOD" came, proved He was God through His miracles, then He allowed filthy human hands to actually beat Him, spit in His face and rip His beard out with their bare hands. Then they whipped him mercilessly, as the Passion of the Christ shows in real, stark detail.
Ancient descriptions describe intestines, bowels and ribs being exposed due to the deadly ripping ends made of metals, or bone. Then He was nailed to the cross and died instead of me, and you if you only just accept it.
He will pay your entire debt, or you will but one way or the other the debt will be paid.


Jack. Started to read your comment but unfortunately it went on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on. Ended up being nothing more then pontification. More judgemental condemnation personal pontification. Too bad

Bronzesnake's picture

The reason you believe in such things as a self created universe, and life is obvious – you don’t comprehend the importance of thorough research, and that’s how otherwise intelligent people believe in such nonsense as you do.


I gave you a lot of REAL verifyable information, which normally you folks would be attacking for lack of evidence.

Now it’s too much evidence, and either way, all you need to do to be “right” is add little school yard comments like “pontification” and you’re good to go, fully informed and scientifically on the “right” side.


Sad. This is where society in general is at these days. Trust the good folks who simply state “evolution is real, it happened, now go back to slleep”


The reason I am correct, is because I actually care about these things called FACTS and I get as many of them as I can before I make any judgement.


Good luck brother. I will pray for you.


"Jack & Jill went up the hill to fetch a pail of water, Jack fell down & broke his crown...", "Sticks & bones may break my bones but names can never hurt me".

You have obviously forgotten what you learnt in kinder-gardern.

A number of decades ago I recall reading something in regards to the start of modern day archaeology. There's even a name for it which I can't recall at the moment. It goes like this.

Some folks got together & decided to take the bible & travel to the Levant. The idea was if "we" can prove some of the cities, sites, historical figures etc., are 'real' then it stands to reason that if this can be proven as 'facts' then it is reasonable to assume (making an ASS out of yoU and ME) this 'proves' that Jesus Christ existed.

Your tirate seems to ascribe to the philosophy of " A lie told long enough and loud enough becomes a truth".

You may refer to myself as a 'brother', but you sure do not have my permission to 'pray' for my 'lost soul'.

Unfortunately being a CHRISTIAN you will assume that you have that right.

See you on the flip side.

Bronzesnake's picture

Wow. How ironic that you should accuse me of going on a "tirate" Actually I’ve never been on a tirate is it fun? You’re probably attempting to accuse me of going on a tirade.

Another error you made was thinking I need your permission to use the colloquial “brother” man, you are really stretching.

You know, making off the cuff statements does not substitute for real fact right?

Because after reading through the train wreck you posted, I see you’ve done exactly that.

Using your cute, yet childish school yard banter in aluding to some uncorroborated truth or fact which I can only guess that in your convoluted manner you must believe you’ve actually gone through any of the nformation I posted, including the information linked to, and have in record time demolished it all as fables and fraud!


In doing so, you’re personal paradigim, if you even have one, is the correct one by default.

Am I correct in my assessment?


LOL! I won’t trouble you further brother, it’s quite obvious you’re not up to snuff and really, you’re simply not contributing anything even remotely rellavent, and so I will pray for you brother, with or without your signed permission.


Now here comes the “warning” NOT a “threat” You had better go through every single piece of information I posted, and get to Jesus Christ as quickly as possible, otherwise you will burn in Hell eternally.


Go here –

and watch my good friend Mario tell you what happened to him, and just see if you still want to roll those dice in rejecting real, observational proof for Jesus Christ.

He has provided us overwealming proof that He is exactly who He said He was 2,000 years ago, and if you reject this information, then you have no excuses on your sentencing day brother.


God IS a loving God, that is why He sent His son to suffer and die in your place, and all you need to do is accept Him.

But make no mistake, God is a terrifying, and awesome faithful judge, and He will judge unrepentant sin. So, you need to understand exactly what you’re up agaonst by chosing the enemy instead of the Almighty.


The kids all think satan is cool, you see it in their music and pop culture everywhere these days. satan represents the ultimate powerful masculine strength, and is the antithesis of wimpy.


And yet they have been deceived, because satan, the big tough scary devil trembles at the mere mention of the nae Jesus Christ!

satan has no power except that which God allows him to have, to serve Hs purposes.

God is Almighty, and the true real TERROR, not satan, who you follow whether you give him permission or not brother.

I’m here trying to help my lost brothers and sisters see the truth and my great hope is some will come to Jesus and be saved, and won’t have to go to Hell, that includes you brother. Whether you like it or not, I will pray for you.





Barry Sears's picture

Jack says this, quote;- 

Now here comes the “warning” NOT a “threat” You had better go through every single piece of information I posted, and get to Jesus Christ as quickly as possible, otherwise you will burn in Hell eternally. 

Is this in the bible or is this just your rather agressive and extremely negative interpretation. When I hear people talking like this it makes me very sad to think that this is a passage of thought that someone may have.

So much of what is stated as fact is conjecture. It astounds me that the secular arguments stand in stark contrast to genuine observation in every case. To keep this short and sweet, radiometric decay has been observed to vary in repeatable laboratory experiments. Such decay in not constant. That is just one of the assumptions the secular community ignores to support and maintain their beliefs. Further, samples of known ages consistently yield ridiculously inaccurate results. Those relying on such methods for samples of unknown ages are refusing to endure sound doctrine. Who is clinging to irrational beliefs? Any research that tends to support scripture (and most specifically Judaeo-Christian scripture) has been systematically excluded from the curriculum for at least two centuries. It should come as no surprise that people with huge investments in that system in terms of time and money desperately put their faith in the wrong place. Indeed, praying for them is the best we can ultimately do.

Barry Sears's picture

Jack say’s

The cost of sin is death.

Really Jack was this a typing mistake? It sounds like you have chosen people and are making your own judgment using your interpretation of scripture. You keep telling us who you have chosen to punish. I have gone through your comments and the number of people you say will be pusished is well I think almost everybody. Would you confirm this statistical observation please.

It is sad, this is part of what makes Christianity a laughing stock. But, its not your fault, you were let down by those who stole the ancient knowledge of the Gnostics, declared it heresy, and invented a religion 'about' Christ, instead the teachings 'of' Christ. They took a smattering of 'sayings', and some personal correspondences, put it in a blender and out came; The Bible, the foundation of which, is, The Mystery Doctrine. The 'Mystery Doctrine' has been responsible for much of the suffering of faithful folks and their denominations and divisions. We now know, the Bible was a political document, and most of the original teachings were burned.
The Gnosis reveals, the Mystery hides, it is time for The Mystery of God to be finished, as it says in the book of Revelations. The Gnosis, having been found, is like the double edged sword proceeding out of the mouth of the Lord.
Much like this site tries to teach ancient things to modern men, who only understand their religion of secular progress... everything is a joke to those who's minds are educated in the Doctrines of Mammon; ie Materialism. (Despite all the evidence to the contrary.)

There is nothing factual about your Gnostic fairytale, neither did you offer any actual evidence that refutes the historical record of Jesus of Nazareth being the Christ of God, crucified, and raised from the dead on the third day! So I hardly think that any honest person can make the claim for the Gnostics inventing Christianity.

Thanks to Dr. Albert Einsein's brilliant discoveries, we now know that time is a physical property and is subject to mass, acceleration, and gravity. We have come to realize that we live in a four-dimensional continuum properly known as "space-time." It is interesting that when one takes the apparent 10v12 expansion factor involved in the theories of the "expanding universe," that an assumed 16 billion years reduce to six days of earth time!

Furthermore, the astronomical timetables now seem to be entirely overturned with the reluctant acknowledgments that the speed of light is no longer regarded as the constant that the high priests of physics had been previously convinced. Laughing stock indeed!

Shawn.........time is a three dimensional construct which God created on the fourth day for your finite wisdom to comprehend. Oh that's right do we know the lengths of day one, two or three let alone four? My answer is consistency.

Why do you think " in a box"? You have neither proof or fact to establish a hypothesis thereby dishonoring your viewpoint as merely wishful thinking. What is a "laughingstock" is assumption which you so readily put forth as fact. The mystery is the naïveté of the clueless.

I made a mistake in placing my reply under Shawn when I meant to refute you Piper. You are naive to think anything is "hidden". The mystery of God was revealed in flesh, seen for the first time by celestial beings referred to as Angels. Told of to the world and believed either accept that or you do not. Parables were meant to keep those who ridicule in their blind wishfulness while you seem to enjoy reading other people's mail. As in any letter you haven't a clue as to its meaning because you have no reference of relationship.

sigh... read Enoch, the book of secrets Ch26-28. What was not revealed even unto the angels...

God Bless

Scripture is blameless. Man has always been quick to judge and slow to change, thanks for Your confirmation of this. Death goes to all who do not believe in Jesus Christ.. As far as time when creation began, Gods mystery is part of his glory. His glory is all over the earth. Your heresy of him is your sin..
His mystery does hide, it is his power over us and beginning of our trust in him, that his eternal world to come in revelation is better than the sinful nature here. And God decides when it is finished, he is the alpha and omega, not you, nor any of us :) If you read bible with a sincere heart, God would make you see, just as he has made you blind. Only believers with the holy spirit in them, born again, understand scripture. This is Gods power at work ! So obviously you don't have a sincere heart for him..

Barry Sears's picture

I could explain how the game of cricket is played but there are those that will not listen, there are those that will not understand. Some prefer to be shown with evidence or practical ways like picking up the bat. There are those that will not listen and they will not until another explains it to them. Some may understand immediately but others may take a while. Some will not even want to know because it is simply cricket. 
What energy source, what circumstance allow for the formation of multiple Galaxies to form to a similar design? All of life on Earth springs from a design or genetically modifies to changing circumstance. Most of live has a parent a mature life form that shapes and forges it's offspring. Does this stop at life forms on Earth or does a parental, mature, further evolved formation offer a template for life on larger scale? What design? What energy system? What circumstances draws material together to form multiple galaxy formations? What pattern, what template within a Galaxy allows for the formation of multiple solar systems? Is this chance or is this a life giving energy system? 
P.S I consider Galaxies life forms, I consider planets and solar systems life forms existing on different scales of time and space. 
This is not thread related and I do so apologies, any further discussion on this subject I will only address on the religious thread.


All the claims you make are objectively baseless, arbitrary claims. I don't think it is reasonable that the God character in the Bible is the creator of this universe. Most of the stuff in the Bible It's most likely man made. Reading the Bible without a gullible mind confirms this heavily.

The real question is “How in the world a quest in ET and 100 000 years old archeology” has turned into ludicrous 4000 years old story of man when we know for facts that Gobeki Tepe is at least 10 000 years of age.

They didn't know it was impossible so they did it. Mark Twain

Bronzesnake's picture

This is a long post, if you don't do "facts" and as much of them as possible before you make your mind up, then this will not be for you.
If you are like me and you want to get as much information as you possibly can, so you can take it and study and research it to see if it's true or not, then read on.
If you are an evolutionists and you think you can prove me wrong using scientific facts, as opposed to personal faith, then I am always willing to be proven wrong and I have no problem admitting when I am wrong and changing my mind. But it will take real facts and not insults and faith based "facts".
Quote - "All the claims you make are objectively baseless, arbitrary claims."
That's an ironic statement in light of the fact that you have not been specific in pointing out which "claims" are baseless, and why? Because you don't understand them? Because you haven't researched them? Or because you're arbitrarily dismissing them?
Quote - "I don't think it is reasonable that the God character in the Bible is the creator of this universe."
Again, based on what? Do you think it's reasonable that the entire universe, including time, space, material, life, laws, systems etc, etc created itself?
Some scientists and some lay people have been hammering away that "science" is a search for knowledge based exclusively on what they determine to be "naturalistic" explanations. I submit that "science" should not be stunted in such a reckless manner, because once we place any parametres on any scientific endeavour, we have pre concluded the outcome and when that happens "science" ceases to be an earnest and honest effort for truth and becomes a tool to be used as a weapon to enforce a religious faith.
Some people have determined that a "creator" God cannot even be a consideration and labeled the very idea as "supernatural" hold that thought for a moment - now, I would ask those people to explain to me how they pre determine that a "creator' cannot even be an outside consideration in any honest search for "truth" How is that determination made?
An even more important question is, what is the basis for such a pre determination?
Now back to the "supernatural" - 
The dictionary definition of "supernatural is - of, relating to, or being above or beyond what is natural;unexplainable by natural law or phenomena; abnormal.
Now let's consider this - in our observational experience we know as fact that we "humans" can and do create, and manufacture many things -  cars, televisions, computers, cheesecloth - paper towels etc.
When we walk along a sandy beach and we observe striations on a linear, horizontal plane in the sand relevant to the lake/ocean/river tides, or normal water movement through wind etc - we know that is a "natural" phenomenon. 
When we see "Mary loves John" printed in the same sand on the same beach, we know that is the result of an intelligent agent - a person did that, and we know that for fact because "natural' phenomenon does not and cannot write out legible, intelligent information. It is fact.
And so consider the universe - which is more "supernatural" based on our accumulated human experience through direct observational fact - an intelligent creator designed and created the universe, life etc - or nothing exploded and by pure fluke, random luck just happened that time, and space just happened to have "happened" at the exact, precise to a ridiculous degree same right time as "nothing" exploded, an dbecame "everything" needed them to have "happened" in order to explode out and into at that "time"?
Which scenario is more supernatural?
And pre emptively - yes evolution science absolutely does submit that "nothing" exploded and became "everything" and here are just a few of the numerous scientific sources to prove it before you all start the name calling and  end up exposing your own ignorance in relation to your own religious faith.
Quote - "Most of the stuff in the Bible It's most likely man made."
Based on? I get this a lot, but no one ever has any specific evidence from which such a "guess" is made.
It's not true simply because you say it. You understand this correct?
Quote - "Reading the Bible without a gullible mind confirms this heavily."
You just contradicted yourself heavily.
Now when you say "gullible" you mean exactly what? Because you inferred that you actually do not know whether the "stuff in the Bible" is "most likely man made" which is bizarre - are you suggesting the universe is man made then?
Or did you screw up your insinuated insult, and actually mean to say - "the Biblical stories are not true, rather myth"?
Are you insinuating that everyone who reads the Bible accepts it on pure faith? Because if you are, I'd like to know how long it took you to interview everyone who read the Bible, and how much time you set aside to interview everyone who has either just started to read it, or plans to read it.
Again, if you are going to make these accusations, then be specific or stop making baseless accusations. It actually does not put Christians in a bad light, it exposes your bias and ignorance, and therefore puts YOU in a bad light.
So I have researched Biblical matters from evolution/creation and historical, archaeological and geographical - scientific, and paleontology for decades and I am ready and willing to answer your specific questions.
Christian leaders admittedly dropped the ball during the time just pre-Darwin and it did some serious damage because of the self righteous and religiously pompous attitudes the clergy had toward the sciences.
All the early great scientific pioneers, many were creationists Christians, and the great universities Harvard, Oxford etc were started by Christians and still the clergy became fat and bloated and had no need of engaging the early challenges to creation and a lot of very serious damage was done.
But those days are over, and the great pendulum has swung back and now the evolutionists, the neo Darwinists are holding up a dead and rotting corpse called Evolution.
Darwin had no clue about how immensely a single cell was, otherwise I believe he was intelligent enough and not deluded by years of evolutionary indoctrination as our Western society has suffered under through the past 150 years, and he would have never have submitted such a ludicrous and bankrupt explanation in the first place. 
Nonetheless, Darwin had serious reservations in light of the fact that he knew there was a disturbing lack of any graduated transitional fossils, and he reservedly asserted the explanation must be the fact that there had not been enough excavations to get a true gauge of the buried reality.
Well it's 150 years later and the verdict is in. There are no transitionals there is zero evidence of any "new" DNA showing up in any genome and his Finches are still Finches, the Peppered Moths are still Moths and bacteria have developed resistance to certain antibiotics, and we know now there was a resistance already in the genome, and yes they are still bacteria.
Evolution 0 God the win.
You can moan and complain, and name call and bang your head on bricks walls while holding your breath till your face goes purple and there will still be exactly zero evidence for evolution, and the sleeping giant "Christians" have awoken.
My goal in contributing to these forums is to help people see the truth and come to Jesus before it's too late for them. If that pisses you off, too bad.

Bronze snake, a heathen idol. "thou shall not worship idols". The other day you made about a dozen posts in 8 hours. On a mission for God.

You look like and remind me of an old chicken hawk, a predator bird, soaring on your lofty wings above us mere mortals, waiting to pounce, to rip and devour.

Listening to your words, hearing your tone, helps to contribute to my internal dialogue as to which is greater. Human ignorance or stupidity. Alas they are one and the same.

It's not so much as what you say, as it is how you say it. The " thou are more holier then thee". Your condemnation, warnings/threats, intimadation, mockery, belittleling, your ongoing attempts of recruiting us lost souls. At least you have stopped referring to everyone as 'kids"

Dear Lord, please save us from those DESIRING to do your will.

Christians have been dying and are dying for the testimony of our faith for 2,000 years. Why should we be concerned with criticism? I'd say that's pretty serious stuff, and not the stuff of laughingstock.

Really?, Really? Sad, proof all around the world of more ancient cultures and buildings and remnants much, much older than that. I suppose jesus rode a dinosaur around his neck of the woods which makes as much sense and/or truth to your theory of a young earth. Wow that's just sad

Bronzesnake's picture

Gee, how can I contend with that thoroughly thought out argument, and sorces...I mean the second I read when you said “really? really? that was it, I knew I was up against a real intilectual with a wealth of fact based knowledge.


I mean, compared to the tons of sources and info I posted, your stuff blows that all I feel foolish now.

Yup, you evolutionites really know your stuff.

Oh, by the way your comment about the dinosaur and Jesus thingy – top rate bro.

You may find this interesting –


But I doubt it.

Or maybe this –


But...nahh, this stuff is fact based, and you obviously don’t deal in fact, and source info, sooo ya, never mind.



Having personally held human made artifacts that were over 6,000 years old I call BS. Counting the generations in Genesis is not a good way to date Earth as there were civilizations older then Genesis is.

Bronzesnake's picture

Of course using geneologies is an excellent way to date creation.

If you’re not a Christiann then ok, I see how you could reject this. However if you are then I would seriously question whatever you thought was over 6,000 years old. Also, you would be very hard pressed to find any real evidence of civilizations older than 6,000 years.


Sure, there are neo Darwinian evolutionists who make all kinds of outrageous claims about millions and billions of years, and they use faulty radio metric dating which is proven to be completely useless. There are a few evolution sciebntists who admit they get widely varrying ages whenever they date anything. What they do is throw out all dates that don’t match their paradigm and keep those which suit their needs.


Very sketchy methods mixed in with healthy dosages of presupposition and assumptions.

Sorry but I strongly disagree with you.



"the patently absurd conclusion"

Deciding that something is absurd simply because it doesn't fit with what one currently believes is an unacceptable approach to scientific research or even logical deduction. It's ultimately no different than asserting "God made it."

So your assertion that "God" didn't make it is just as absurd by your logic. Why did you even open your mouth when you can't prove your hypothesis of a non-existence?

There is nothing absurd about saying God made the universe. Since we know from science that the universe is not eternal, that space/time/matter are co-relative, and that energy and matter can not create themselves, something outside of our universe and its physical laws is the most plausible 'First Cause' for the effect of time/space/matter, coming into existence. A transcendent supernatural intelligence - God - is the most reasonable "First Cause" for our universe.

Material Natural Atheist Evolution's dedication to the proposal that there was nothing, then that nothing blew up, and then the nothing that blew up ordered itself into highly complex systems for no reason but chance, is an utter mystery to actual science. If you want to assert that your world creation myth is somehow based on scientific fact and reason, please tell us what repeated observations and scientific experiments you used to establish your belief that something can come from nothing, that life can come from non-living matter?

Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.

Shawn, my point was to counter using Saiko's logic. So many make the effort to say God does not exist when in reality you cannot prove that scientifically or otherwise. Their doubts and attempts to disprove the existence of God reflect the weakness of writing down the foolish statement, they remove the veil of their contempt while trying to hide behind the word "science".

Instead of opening up their minds, they are trying to fit what they see into the only box their ignorant brains can conjure up.

How about water being brought in from items impacting earth, or how about the Expanding Earth theory where the earth was thought to be much smaller in ancient times and has been expanding a little at a time for many millennia.

As Sherlock Holmes was noted to have said. "How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth"

IE: Stop thinking inside the box and open your minds to the possibility that the improbable is exactly what happened.

" Stop thinking inside the box and open your minds to the possibility that the improbable is exactly what happened."

In order for people to think outside the box, they must pull their head out of their box, first.

I really see nothing absurd or ignorant with anything posted here. We are all talking about a topic which is virtually unknown to all but the few whom know/hide the ancient facts.

IMHO we must determine the origin(s) of humankind before we can even scratch the surface regarding the origin of the universe. We are analogously like an earthworm contemplating the origins of man.

I agree with the Sherlock Holmes quote: "How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth".

However, the truth has been absconded from our perusal (E.g. Gnostic Scriptures; the unedited Kolbrin Bible; the Sumerian Cuneiform tablets, the Library of Alexandria). We cannot objectively conclude the origins of anything with the mere faith of subjective hypothesis.

Wow, I'm glad Sherlock is on the case! Don't things contract when they cool? I know ice displaces a greater volume than water thereby taking up more room when it freezes but other things shrink. An earth expanding is kind of silly. Are we now a star burning up to a larger cooler volume? Maybe Sherlock had one too many? As far as the earth collecting water from space..........why that would mean a perfect vacuum can exist along with a pressurized container with no barrier to separate the two. There's that magic Gravity again. Go Holmes! Go Holmes!

Barry Sears's picture

Gentlemen debating the theory of evolution verses creation, have you read the philosophy of the New Perspective? This is a bridge between the subjects as both subjects are about trying to explain how life works. The theory of creation explains how life has evolved on Earth, but so to the Earth has evolved and the galaxy formations have evolved and still evolving. We now recognise the different phases the planets are in and their life-cycle, we recognise the different life-cycle phases our multiple galaxies are in. Life has evolved to larger life forms expressed traditionally as bodies, human enlargements and these structure now like parents have influential effects on life on Earth. The modern theory and life-cycle of the planets are similar to the biblical theory genesis to revelations the life-cycle of the planets.
Your debate is not relevant to this thread and so I invite you to the thread in the religious section. 

if the carribean was once dry land, like a very deep bowl as the central America was the barrier to pacific waters and the island chain from east florida to south America was the atlantic ocean barrier... then there are lots of fossils of dinosaurs lying under all that seafloor muck, a real treasure trove worth exploring

I'm not so sure about dinosaurs, but I would agree with you on there being lots of dead creatures!

Good article I also do not know what happened. What ever happened , happened. NNoah flood maybe.

Barry Sears's picture

Another factor assisting the theory is the changing of regions due to pressures exerted on the Earth by the heavy mass of water. The weight of water compressing and altering exposed land forms. A concept known as "the New Perspective" also identifies the natural life-cycles of the planets and the movement of water on and off Earth due to it's location relative to the sun. The closer to the sun the less water due to evaporation, further from the sun water is more frozen and so a maximum point of water also exists. Please refer to this website for detailed material, the movement of life article;- article;
A slightly unrelated fascinating discovery to this article is the picture of Taurus underwater at this site in Cuba relating to the global anatomy zodiacs for those following this concept. 

Check Google Earth at Astoria, Oregon you can see that the Columbia River at one time ran off the outer edge of the contenental shelf.  You can fallow the river bed southword through the off shore Oregon earthquake zone and west on the ocean now ocean floor to about 500 miles west of Coose Bay, Oregon.  That tells me that before Noah’s flood there was no water there.  People could have walked from Africa to Cuba.  Noah’s flood filled the oceans to the outer edge of the contenental shelf and ice melt over the last 5000 years put the beaches where the are now.


Thanks for you comment. Geologists would argue that these canyons could have been carved over millions of years by the erosive action of suspended sediments carried by the river as it flowed into the ocean...What do you think about this?

Sediment that comes out of rivers ends up as deltas.  Fresh water is lighter than ocean water and stays on top.  The part of the river bed that is partly obscured between the continental shelf and the Oregon Earthquake Zone is the result of thousands of years of alternating Japanese and Alaskan currant.  

It is my observation that the canyons off the continental shelf were formed in fourty days and fourty nights.


Bronzesnake's picture

Great article.

Are you familiar with Dr Thomas Sharp?

He has done a lot of research in relation to the Biblical flood geology, and you can watc one of his presentations here

He makes a very powerful case that flooding could carve out the Grand Canyon in a matter of weeks. Based on many things, but the evidence he has observed and studied in the aftermat of Mount St Helens is really strong.

Take care. Thank you for your efforts, and this fantastic story.

I heard about it oh...had to be ten years ago? Just guessing mind you, but I would think at least 5 years plus.

I heard it on Coast To Coast, and I can’t recal if it was Art Bell, or George Noorey.


Ontario, Canada

Ever since Google Earth started showing features under the ocean I have been fastenated by them. I wish I could find a sourse for more resolution.   I figure that the outer edge of the continental shelf is about 360 to 500 feet under water which allows for sealevel rise of about ten inches every 100 years for the last 5000 years.  This accounts for finding the City of Alexandria off the coast of Ejupt about 60 feet under water.  The city was thriving in 300 BC.  

The latent heat obsorbed from ice melting to water has kept earth temprature stable for the last 5000 years (+or- sun changes).  Now that most of the ice has melted I expect earth temprature to rise.

I have never heard any of this from George Noory or Art Bell.  I also was not familiar with Dr.Thomas Sharp.  Interesting vidio.  Supports my theary pretty well.

Just a point of interest, I, my wife and two suns moved to St Helens, Oregon in 1980.  I worked graveyard at the fiberglass mill.  I woke up unexpetedly one day sat down at the kitchen table, looked out the window and saw the big black cloud of smoke and ash boiling up into the air.


Bronzesnake's picture

Hello goodwinre

Genesis 7:11 – “In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.”


When I look for proof for the “fountains of the deep” breaking open, I see the globe shows a seam which stretches the entire planet un the ocean, and I have my evidence.

How could any ancient writer know such an anomoly existed  down there?


Take care brother


Thanks BRONZESNAKE for the great question. My son asked the same question. I'm not sure what a fountain of great the deep looks like but if the "seam which stretches the entire planet under the ocean" is it, Noah cold have walked over there and looked. I know that's what Kent Hovinds thinks but I don't agree. When it comes to geology I've found that one person's guess is as good as another because nobody really knows what happened. Have you noticed the big glob of stuff that flowed around the south of Chili? I think it has about seven volcanoes on the end of it? That looks like magma that didn't hit the subduction zone under Chili. That much all the way north did hit Chili and probably all the way up the US west coast, and I believe that came out of your "seam which stretches the entire planet under the ocean", A lot happened in Genesis 1 through 5. Was time even running then?  

Sorry.  I don’t know where all the water came from.



Bronzesnake's picture

Geologists should be spending as much of their time and resources as they can at the Mount St Helens site, where a mini Grand Canyon was cut through solid rock within a matter of days, and every aspect of the Old Earth sciences can be seen to have happened very rapidly, which should stop at least the honest scientists and geologists from totally dismissing a creation science possibility.


Too much information to post here, but I suggest you should go on youtube and look for Dr.Thomas Sharp and a thousand years in a day.


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