Why is it that archaeologists/historians insist on using a broad geographical area such as "Europe" to suggest people are somehow connect to central Europeans? And furthermore, they, even in the same sentence, use "Caucasian" to describe people/mummies as somehow, long time ago came from Central Europe and ARE Europeans (the people of Europe as we know it today)? The Afghans/Pakistanis have "white" features and are much closer to the Basin area. White Europe has a Deep Emotional Wish to some how give credit and history to a culture (the Europeans) that did not have one 2,000yr ago until only the last 500 years with the European Age of Enlightenment.
Actually I am not making anyfallacy at all . The criteria is that since we know that your believe in a God stems from the bible and this dude Yaweh which is your God and of the Jews is based on Sun God mythology and mythological beings are only figments of man's imagination therefor God does not exist at least not the God you believe in. Religion is about a God concept based on mythology and man has put many properties in this concept God idea properties which man himself has and even made up supernatural properties. If you read the babble you would even know that Yaweh is not even the ''real '' god in that pantheon but what would you know. You are brainwashed into that believe of yours do not blame me for that mistake it is your problem and the ignorance of religious people as a body became, well was always a problem for the world at the start ! Why don't you first do a study in origin of your believe and the myths it came from before believe anything of that stuff or yours ?
''your sources might have been decidedly anti God from the start, ''
== Your sources are decidedly pro God from the start ! Since it is YOU and your religion which claims the existence of God ( acc to O.T psychopathic loser and mass murderer - Jesus ( fucking christ) you have to prove the existence of all those biblical characters as being real and historical for the burden of proof is on YOU not me I only do counterclaims and those claims come from study and research from others before me. ''but against God who you are trying so hard to proof that He does not exist''
-- God does not exist so I cannot be against something that does not exist and I also cannot be against something I cannot see nor know of nor interaction with nor with something which is not proven to be real. No I do not even try hard for that is easy to dismiss the existence of a God that is ! You try hard to claim he does exist ! So ones again you made fallacy's ! Study fallacy's please ? I am many steps ahead of you in study and knowledge so study harder please to catch up ! LOL.
''Voltaire renounced God yet on his death bed his dying words were Hell, hell, hell.. Stalin lifted himself up from his bed and shook his fist towards heaven before he died''
== Yea might be, so what ? That is not proof of anything let alone proof of Hell , heaven let alone the existence of a God ! So you made another argument of ignorance !
''Emperor Flavius Julian conceded: You have conquered O Galilean (a reference to Jesus Christ) on his death bed.''
== Ones again so what ? Does not proof a thing ! Argument of ignorance ! Argument dismissed as bullshit ! Try again smarty pants !
''The reality is that if Jesus Christ is not Who He said He was and did not do what He did then we have absolutely nothing to fear.''
== Who says there was a historical Jesus in 1st c AD ? There is no evidence for a historical Jesus as mentioned in the gospels and we know that that character is based on sun god astrotheology ! Do some study in origin of those stories and themes please for you have not any clue what you are talking about ! So and secondly I give a damn about what a historian said 2000 years ago ! There is no Jesus and proof is not delivered as of today so you will be the first to prove it ! There is no relationship to that Him there is no Him at all. Do some study stupid ignorant fallacy making uneducated foolish christian !
Sadly, Islamic culture is now know for its astounding levels of violence towards their fellow man. If Albert Einstein was machine gunning restaurant patrons and concert goers aand flying planes into buildings we'd probably quickly forget all the brilliant ideas he came up with as well.
The information about the book is scholarly enough. People now days seem to give more credit to the book then what it should get, I think. The quote you used is really a very common one that other people/sites like to pull out. Well, they like that one and the one about the little girl who causes the hail storm.
It sounds as though you read many things about the book but it also sounds like you didn’t actually read the book itself. You should read the book itself. It's actually more informative then one would guess. It actually says a lot about what people actually thought about witches vs. what disproportional nonsense much of the media tells us about those times. And after you do read it, go read some transcripts of witch trials from the 1500 and 1600's. Though part three of that book is very, very detailed about how witch trials work, I think you will notice the massive discrepancy in how the trials from 1520-1700 actually worked.
I got around to reading that book about a year ago. Now it bothers me when people give the book way more credit then it should get and talk about it as one of the 'Most evil book in history" how it's just waiting to re-start the burning-times and about the '4 million Wiccians and witches that were burned'. But then, I'm in the US and our Wiccians like to to claim that they are the oldest religion in existence so maybe i'm just taking things out of proportion.
There is no record of Kiya being a sister of Ahkenaten. His sisters were are all named which was Nebetah, Beketaten, Iset, Sitamun. One of these ladies was his son's mother. I think there is a far better chance of Beketaten being his mother since she is often referenced to being in her mother's company as they were close. Since the younger lady was found with her it's a possibility that it could be beketaten.
Lots of testing seems to have been done including extracting the DNA of people who may have come into contact with the shroud. Nobody seems to have commented on the obvious requirement to DNA test the blood stains on the shroud.
I can't see why this is impossible if DNA can be isolated from lesser biological influences on the shroud.
Such testing would show the geographic origin of the person who produced the image. Jesus or Jacques de Molay - or some unfortunate made to resemble Christ in order to perpetrate a fraud.
The first sentence of this article makes me wonder if the writer is herself only two decades old. Please grow up. Perhaps you should spend time in your local library reading material on these subjects that was published five, twenty and yes even 50 decades ago!! My!! What wondrous articles you could write then!!! Please keep writing - but check a few books before you do - you'd be amazed(apparently) at what those of us alive forty to five hundred years ago knew.
This is good to know that it could be a result of something fermented. I know it is possible to ferment multiple things at once into the same batch. Something I'm wondering. Was there a possibility 1) cup got switched. 2) different rhyton was filled with this wine . 3) wine was served the next day to him or morning. Whatever an assassin did they really covered their tracks.
I support the Jacques de Molay theory wholeheartedly, with the basis of my thoughts resting on the carbon dating performed in in 1988 which sets the origins of the shroud between 1260 and 1390. Robert Lomas and Christopher Knight provided reasonable explanation for the distortions in the shroud in their book The Second Messiah, which I will address here:
- Arm distortion (impossible length) created by body lying on a soft surface with head raised on pillow which moves arms down.
- The apparent lack of facial distortion is present becuase the shroud was suspended a short distance from the face and the image was caused by an as yet unknown convection process explained by Dr Allan Mills.
To address your questions:
“If it is the image of Jacques DeMolay, then either he was considerably thinner than the image, or had a flat face/body.” Explained above but if you can read further by purchasing the book I refer to for £2 on eBay.
“If he was ‘nailed to something’ while undergoing torture, fine, but the details are important as the shroud exhibits evidence of crucifixion (hands and feet) and flogging as well as a side wound that bled profusely. Did Jacques DeMolay undergo specifically this torture? Is it documented?” Indeed it is. The victim was tortured in a parody of the crucifixion of Jesus to extract a confession for crime against Church dogma. The back marks were caused by scourging delivered by someone standing in front of the victim. Evidence suggests the victim’s right arm was raised above the head and left arm outstretched horizontally, as proved by blood flow on the arms. The fact that some researchers have suggested the victim’s right shoulder was dislocated also supports this prognosis. A crown of sharp objects was forced onto the victims head – it is recorded that the Inquisition regularly nailed people to posts or other convenient objects as a form of torture.
“And if he did, he apparently survived because it is also put forth he was later publically burned at the stake. If that is accurate, it means THIS ISN’T a death shroud at all? It can’t possibly be his shroud after being burned at the stake, because, how the hair/beard???” The victim was alive but unconscious after the ordeal and was taken down from the crucifixion object. The chemical processes then got to work after a shroud was wrapped under and over the victim. The inquisitors were under strict orders not to kill de Molay. Once he was well enough after being cared for by Jean de Charney, a 'confession’ was extracted. He later died in the flames after retracting his ‘confession’.
“The explanation of Jacques DeMolay still doesn’t explain the necessity of a flat surface to create the image on the cloth.” Jacques de Molay was not rested on a flat surface.
Actually THERELIHUNTER you are also engaged in quite a few fallacies yourself. Science is limited to the study of the natural material world and cannot be used to determine whether God exist or not. So what would your criteria be for determining whether God exist or not? Also you stated that you studied the origins of the Bible and religion, but it seems that your sources might have been decidedly anti God from the start, maybe you should opt for better and more reliable sources. Your position and opposition to God is not new, many people through history took the same position, you need to understand that your fight is not against people, but against God who you are trying so hard to proof that He does not exist. Voltaire renounced God yet on his death bed his dying words were Hell, hell, hell.. Stalin lifted himself up from his bed and shook his fist towards heaven before he died and Emperor Flavius Julian conceded: You have conquered O Galilean (a reference to Jesus Christ) on his death bed. C. S. Lewis stated that there are only two types of people in this world. Those who say: Your will be done, and those who say: Your will be done. The reality is that if Jesus Christ is not Who He said He was and did not do what He did then we have absolutely nothing to fear. However if He was Who He said He is and did what He has done, eternity lies in the balance and nothing is more important than our relationship to Him.
I’ve read the Bible, and many other religious works written by the so-called hand of God. The fact is that the shroud has been independently carbon-dated on three occasions to the mid 14th century. This type of cloth laying rutual over the tortured and crucified was utilized well into this time by the Roman Catholic Church for dealing with heretics. I’m not judging your beliefs Markegie but I can’t believe ‘God specifically stated’ anything in any text – I’m just not able to comprehend an off-planet deity like the Jew’s Yahweh being able to hold any earthly writing implement. You need to try take in what I’ve made mention of in earlier comments here regarding Jacques de Molay and the true origins of the shroud.
Here you can navigate quickly through all comments made in any article sorted by date/time.
Europe?! Read my other comment about Europe.
You got to be careful when reading and interpreting the word "Europe" by white historians/archaeologist.
Mongols!
There's your answer. The Mongols went far as Hungary & Russia.
Why is it that archaeologists/historians insist on using a broad geographical area such as "Europe" to suggest people are somehow connect to central Europeans? And furthermore, they, even in the same sentence, use "Caucasian" to describe people/mummies as somehow, long time ago came from Central Europe and ARE Europeans (the people of Europe as we know it today)? The Afghans/Pakistanis have "white" features and are much closer to the Basin area. White Europe has a Deep Emotional Wish to some how give credit and history to a culture (the Europeans) that did not have one 2,000yr ago until only the last 500 years with the European Age of Enlightenment.
I am so interested to learn about the history of the world , starting from Egyptian history
Actually I am not making anyfallacy at all . The criteria is that since we know that your believe in a God stems from the bible and this dude Yaweh which is your God and of the Jews is based on Sun God mythology and mythological beings are only figments of man's imagination therefor God does not exist at least not the God you believe in. Religion is about a God concept based on mythology and man has put many properties in this concept God idea properties which man himself has and even made up supernatural properties. If you read the babble you would even know that Yaweh is not even the ''real '' god in that pantheon but what would you know. You are brainwashed into that believe of yours do not blame me for that mistake it is your problem and the ignorance of religious people as a body became, well was always a problem for the world at the start ! Why don't you first do a study in origin of your believe and the myths it came from before believe anything of that stuff or yours ?
''your sources might have been decidedly anti God from the start, ''
== Your sources are decidedly pro God from the start ! Since it is YOU and your religion which claims the existence of God ( acc to O.T psychopathic loser and mass murderer - Jesus ( fucking christ) you have to prove the existence of all those biblical characters as being real and historical for the burden of proof is on YOU not me I only do counterclaims and those claims come from study and research from others before me. ''but against God who you are trying so hard to proof that He does not exist''
-- God does not exist so I cannot be against something that does not exist and I also cannot be against something I cannot see nor know of nor interaction with nor with something which is not proven to be real. No I do not even try hard for that is easy to dismiss the existence of a God that is ! You try hard to claim he does exist ! So ones again you made fallacy's ! Study fallacy's please ? I am many steps ahead of you in study and knowledge so study harder please to catch up ! LOL.
''Voltaire renounced God yet on his death bed his dying words were Hell, hell, hell.. Stalin lifted himself up from his bed and shook his fist towards heaven before he died''
== Yea might be, so what ? That is not proof of anything let alone proof of Hell , heaven let alone the existence of a God ! So you made another argument of ignorance !
''Emperor Flavius Julian conceded: You have conquered O Galilean (a reference to Jesus Christ) on his death bed.''
== Ones again so what ? Does not proof a thing ! Argument of ignorance ! Argument dismissed as bullshit ! Try again smarty pants !
''The reality is that if Jesus Christ is not Who He said He was and did not do what He did then we have absolutely nothing to fear.''
== Who says there was a historical Jesus in 1st c AD ? There is no evidence for a historical Jesus as mentioned in the gospels and we know that that character is based on sun god astrotheology ! Do some study in origin of those stories and themes please for you have not any clue what you are talking about ! So and secondly I give a damn about what a historian said 2000 years ago ! There is no Jesus and proof is not delivered as of today so you will be the first to prove it ! There is no relationship to that Him there is no Him at all. Do some study stupid ignorant fallacy making uneducated foolish christian !
Sadly, Islamic culture is now know for its astounding levels of violence towards their fellow man. If Albert Einstein was machine gunning restaurant patrons and concert goers aand flying planes into buildings we'd probably quickly forget all the brilliant ideas he came up with as well.
The information about the book is scholarly enough. People now days seem to give more credit to the book then what it should get, I think. The quote you used is really a very common one that other people/sites like to pull out. Well, they like that one and the one about the little girl who causes the hail storm.
It sounds as though you read many things about the book but it also sounds like you didn’t actually read the book itself. You should read the book itself. It's actually more informative then one would guess. It actually says a lot about what people actually thought about witches vs. what disproportional nonsense much of the media tells us about those times. And after you do read it, go read some transcripts of witch trials from the 1500 and 1600's. Though part three of that book is very, very detailed about how witch trials work, I think you will notice the massive discrepancy in how the trials from 1520-1700 actually worked.
I got around to reading that book about a year ago. Now it bothers me when people give the book way more credit then it should get and talk about it as one of the 'Most evil book in history" how it's just waiting to re-start the burning-times and about the '4 million Wiccians and witches that were burned'. But then, I'm in the US and our Wiccians like to to claim that they are the oldest religion in existence so maybe i'm just taking things out of proportion.
There is no record of Kiya being a sister of Ahkenaten. His sisters were are all named which was Nebetah, Beketaten, Iset, Sitamun. One of these ladies was his son's mother. I think there is a far better chance of Beketaten being his mother since she is often referenced to being in her mother's company as they were close. Since the younger lady was found with her it's a possibility that it could be beketaten.
I’m not sure why but I thought that this was a very beautiful and uplifting story. It made for a happy day.
Fascinating and brilliant article. Well written and innovative.
Buddha Boy doesn't cut his hair either. here's his website - maitriya.info/en/
Lots of testing seems to have been done including extracting the DNA of people who may have come into contact with the shroud. Nobody seems to have commented on the obvious requirement to DNA test the blood stains on the shroud.
I can't see why this is impossible if DNA can be isolated from lesser biological influences on the shroud.
Such testing would show the geographic origin of the person who produced the image. Jesus or Jacques de Molay - or some unfortunate made to resemble Christ in order to perpetrate a fraud.
The first sentence of this article makes me wonder if the writer is herself only two decades old. Please grow up. Perhaps you should spend time in your local library reading material on these subjects that was published five, twenty and yes even 50 decades ago!! My!! What wondrous articles you could write then!!! Please keep writing - but check a few books before you do - you'd be amazed(apparently) at what those of us alive forty to five hundred years ago knew.
How did this fellows journey end? Did he make it through the cold Russian winter? Did the study prove what it sent out to?
Yes, Lady is correct – he did make it, and his pilgrimage facebook page with updates is here:
https://www.facebook.com/14thcenturypilgrimsprogress
Did anybody bother to check the bathroom?
This is good to know that it could be a result of something fermented. I know it is possible to ferment multiple things at once into the same batch. Something I'm wondering. Was there a possibility 1) cup got switched. 2) different rhyton was filled with this wine . 3) wine was served the next day to him or morning. Whatever an assassin did they really covered their tracks.
I support the Jacques de Molay theory wholeheartedly, with the basis of my thoughts resting on the carbon dating performed in in 1988 which sets the origins of the shroud between 1260 and 1390. Robert Lomas and Christopher Knight provided reasonable explanation for the distortions in the shroud in their book The Second Messiah, which I will address here:
- Arm distortion (impossible length) created by body lying on a soft surface with head raised on pillow which moves arms down.
- The apparent lack of facial distortion is present becuase the shroud was suspended a short distance from the face and the image was caused by an as yet unknown convection process explained by Dr Allan Mills.
To address your questions:
“If it is the image of Jacques DeMolay, then either he was considerably thinner than the image, or had a flat face/body.” Explained above but if you can read further by purchasing the book I refer to for £2 on eBay.
“If he was ‘nailed to something’ while undergoing torture, fine, but the details are important as the shroud exhibits evidence of crucifixion (hands and feet) and flogging as well as a side wound that bled profusely. Did Jacques DeMolay undergo specifically this torture? Is it documented?” Indeed it is. The victim was tortured in a parody of the crucifixion of Jesus to extract a confession for crime against Church dogma. The back marks were caused by scourging delivered by someone standing in front of the victim. Evidence suggests the victim’s right arm was raised above the head and left arm outstretched horizontally, as proved by blood flow on the arms. The fact that some researchers have suggested the victim’s right shoulder was dislocated also supports this prognosis. A crown of sharp objects was forced onto the victims head – it is recorded that the Inquisition regularly nailed people to posts or other convenient objects as a form of torture.
“And if he did, he apparently survived because it is also put forth he was later publically burned at the stake. If that is accurate, it means THIS ISN’T a death shroud at all? It can’t possibly be his shroud after being burned at the stake, because, how the hair/beard???” The victim was alive but unconscious after the ordeal and was taken down from the crucifixion object. The chemical processes then got to work after a shroud was wrapped under and over the victim. The inquisitors were under strict orders not to kill de Molay. Once he was well enough after being cared for by Jean de Charney, a 'confession’ was extracted. He later died in the flames after retracting his ‘confession’.
“The explanation of Jacques DeMolay still doesn’t explain the necessity of a flat surface to create the image on the cloth.” Jacques de Molay was not rested on a flat surface.
Actually THERELIHUNTER you are also engaged in quite a few fallacies yourself. Science is limited to the study of the natural material world and cannot be used to determine whether God exist or not. So what would your criteria be for determining whether God exist or not? Also you stated that you studied the origins of the Bible and religion, but it seems that your sources might have been decidedly anti God from the start, maybe you should opt for better and more reliable sources. Your position and opposition to God is not new, many people through history took the same position, you need to understand that your fight is not against people, but against God who you are trying so hard to proof that He does not exist. Voltaire renounced God yet on his death bed his dying words were Hell, hell, hell.. Stalin lifted himself up from his bed and shook his fist towards heaven before he died and Emperor Flavius Julian conceded: You have conquered O Galilean (a reference to Jesus Christ) on his death bed. C. S. Lewis stated that there are only two types of people in this world. Those who say: Your will be done, and those who say: Your will be done. The reality is that if Jesus Christ is not Who He said He was and did not do what He did then we have absolutely nothing to fear. However if He was Who He said He is and did what He has done, eternity lies in the balance and nothing is more important than our relationship to Him.
I’ve read the Bible, and many other religious works written by the so-called hand of God. The fact is that the shroud has been independently carbon-dated on three occasions to the mid 14th century. This type of cloth laying rutual over the tortured and crucified was utilized well into this time by the Roman Catholic Church for dealing with heretics. I’m not judging your beliefs Markegie but I can’t believe ‘God specifically stated’ anything in any text – I’m just not able to comprehend an off-planet deity like the Jew’s Yahweh being able to hold any earthly writing implement. You need to try take in what I’ve made mention of in earlier comments here regarding Jacques de Molay and the true origins of the shroud.
Pages