150,000-Year-Old Pipes in China

150,000-Year-Old Pipes Baffle Scientists in China: Out of Place in Time?

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By Tara MacIsaacEpoch Times

Oopart (out of place artifact) is a term applied to dozens of prehistoric objects found in various places around the world that seem to show a level of technological advancement incongruous with the times in which they were made. Ooparts often frustrate conventional scientists, delight adventurous investigators open to alternative theories, and spark debate.

In a mysterious pyramid in China’s Qinghai Province near Mount Baigong are three caves filled with pipes leading to a nearby salt-water lake. There are also pipes under the lake bed and on the shore. The iron pipes range in size, with some smaller than a toothpick. The strangest part is that they may be about 150,000 years old.

Dating done by the Beijing Institute of Geology determined these iron pipes were smelted about 150,000 years ago, if they were indeed made by humans, according to Brian Dunning of Skeptoid.com. 

And if they were made by humans, history as it is commonly viewed would have to be re-evaluated.

The dating was done using thermoluminescence, a technique that determines how long ago crystalline mineral was exposed to sunlight or heated. Humans are only thought to have inhabited the region for the past 30,000 years. Even within the known history of the area, the only humans to inhabit the region were nomads whose lifestyle would not leave any such structures behind.

The state-run news agency Xinhua in China reported on the pyramid, the pipes, and the research began by a team scientists sent to investigate in 2002. 

Though some have since tried to explain the pipes as a natural phenomenon, Yang Ji, a research fellow at the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, told Xinhua the pyramid may have been built by intelligent beings. He did not dismiss the theory that ancient extraterrestrials may be responsible, saying this theory is “understandable and worth looking into … but scientific means must be employed to prove whether or not it is true.”

Another theory is that it was built by prehistoric humans with techniques lost to humans of a later period. 

The pipes lead into a salty lake, though a twin lake nearby contains freshwater. The surrounding landscape is strewn with what Xinhua described as “strangely shaped stones.” Rocks protrude from the ground like broken pillars.

The head of the publicity department at the local Delingha government told Xinhua the pipes were analyzed at a local smeltery and 8 percent of the material could not be identified. The rest was made up of ferric oxide, silicon dioxide, and calcium oxide. The silicon dioxide and calcium oxide are products of long interaction between the iron and surrounding sandstone, showing the ancient age of the pipes. Liu Shaolin, the engineer who did the analysis, told Xinhua: “This result has made the site even more mysterious.”

“Nature is harsh here,” he said. “There are no residents let alone modern industry in the area, only a few migrant herdsmen to the north of the mountain.”

To further add to the mystery, Zheng Jiandong, a geology research fellow from the China Earthquake Administration told state-run newspaper People’s Daily in 2007 that some of the pipes were found to be highly radioactive.  

Other Theories

Jiandong said iron-rich magma may have risen from deep in the Earth, bringing the iron into fissures where it would solidify into tubes. Though he admitted, “There is indeed something mysterious about these pipes.” He cited the radioactivity as an example of the strange qualities of the pipes.

Others have said iron sediments may have washed into the fissures, carried with water during floods.

Though Xinhua and other publications in China have referred to a pyramid or even a mysterious pyramid in which the pipes were found, some have said it was a pyramid-shaped natural formation. 

Another theory is that the pipes are fossilized tree roots. Xinmin Weekly reported in 2003 that scientists found plant matter in an analysis of the pipes, and they also found what looked like tree rings. The article related the finding to a geological theory that in certain temperatures and under certain chemical conditions, tree roots can undergo diagenesis (transformation of soil into rock) and other processes that can produce iron formations.

Reports on the tree-root explanation for the so-called Baigong pipes often lead back to this Xinmin Weekly article or lack citation. It’s unclear exactly how well-supported this theory is in relation to the Baigong pipes.

An article published in the Journal of Sedimentary Research in 1993 describes fossilized tree roots in South Louisiana in the United States.

Featured image: Baigong Cave, with photo of pipe in the bottom left. Source.

The article "150,000-Year-Old Pipes Baffle Scientists in China: Out of Place in Time?" was first published by Epoch Times


150000 years? Omg isn't there an error determination of this "150000" years? There said that these pipes are radioactive so its chemistry may decomposite and warp the carbon test results. Anyways, I'm not a scientist, maybe that result is true.

Well,here we go again, a new mystery, in this case 150,000 year old pipes and pyramid plus strange radioactivity. At least these "scientists are willing to admit the extreme age of the artifacts unlike scholars in the West.

Let ask, is there another place where there is found strange radioactivity associated with artifacts? Yes, on the Indus River artifacts and lost cities. What could cause this? How about a kind of dirty bomb resulting from asteroid or comet impacts? We suggest this as a cause for the destruction of the Indus River Civilization some 28 million years ago. OH! Radioactivity will affect dating by making things younger than they are.

In November of 2013 I wrote an article for Ancient Origins and argued for a 28 million year date for the pyramids but readers of this website objected. Now, some evidence is being made public.

The issue is that the Earth has been home to many previously lost civilizations inhabited by non humans, possibly humans ancestors. These civilizations date back millions of years, at least 100 million and possibly very much more.

We discuss a number of issues in our blog http://black2tell.wordpress.com. Mr. Black

28 million years ago? That's almost more preposterous than the religious folks claiming the Earth is only 6,000 years old. Humans didn't even develop into Homo Sapiens Sapiens until the last 100,000 years. Sure, there may be early non-human civilizations we don't know about (anything is possible) but no evidence of them is likely to exist. 100 million years ago the Earth was ruled by large dinosaurs, so your timeline seems dubious at best.

The Indus Valley Civilization is definitely not 28 million years old though- we have a plethora of evidence to date that civilization to the Bronze Age. You don't need to make up stuff just to have an open mind. Again, I'm NOT ruling out the possibility of pre-human civilization or more ancient civilizations (the pyramids may be 12,000 years old, not 5,000) but to say they are millions of years old is simply turning a blind eye to evidence.

if we invent time travel, or there are "aliens" out there then 28 million years is not all that impossible. it is way more probable than a 6,000 year old universe.

28 million may be a stretch, but, there are interesting legends out there of advanced civilizations going back 2-3 million years. who knows.

Bottom line these lead pipes show some serious technology 150k years ago. Why? how? who?

Modern skeptical science will have no answers only attempts to ignore and brush to the side like it doesn't exist.

..."Modern skeptical science will have no answers only attempts to ignore and brush to the side like it doesn't exist..."

Heck, now they even fire scientists who report facts derived using scientific method - the scientists who was fired for reporting that they found soft tissue...i mean come on...most science today is an absolute failure...

Tesla - "The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane."

Tesla - "Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality."

You are very correct. Modern science is too limited in scope to proclaim what is possible, or not. Mathematics are based on 3 dimensional properties which cannot explain properties beyond this continuum. Even advanced probabilities cannot equate the remaining 5th to 12th dimensional, because One would have to understand and formulate physical aspects beyond the range of this 3rd dimension. The conundrum also applies to energies and forces beyond the known electromagnetic spectrum. For example; It has been proposed the Great Pyramid at Giza, was some kind of reactor which used water to generate a resonance within the upper chambers. Modern scientist don't have clue as to what the end product was, or how it was produced, or for what purpose. Apparently the ancient Egyptians, or some predecessors used highly advanced milling devices to cut stone such as the internal surfaces of the sarcophagus of the "king's" chamber

I think one of the biggest problems with people is how they use “science” while ignoring what science says. Example is time. Science PROVES time is relative- what may be observed as 1 year to one person may be observed as 1,000yrs to another person depending on their speed relative to each other. I read so much arguments about how this or that couldn’t possibly have happened because they perceive time as being absolute rather than relative. We really do not fully understand time, yet we make all kinds of arguments based on it. While it is believed the speed of light has never changed there is nothing saying that our relativeness to the speed of light has not changed. An example is a muon- a muon has an average lifespan of 2.2 milliseconds yet we are about to detect them on earth coming from the sun which takes over 7 minutes to get here. Someone on earth would conclude and argue to the bitter end that a muon must have a lifespan of at least 7 minutes, while someone else would argue that it can’t possibly have a life span of more than 2.2milliseconds. Although the speed of light may be constant over time there is nothing to say that “our” relationship to the speed of light hasn’t changed over time. While someone claims 28million years old that is only relative to our current observation- that date actually might be more like 6,000yrs- just like muon really only last 2.2 milliseconds, but we are still able to observe it coming from the sun making it look more like at least 7 minutes old. 1 final thought regarding the 6,000yr old earth claim- the bible defines a day as 1 dark and 1 light cycle not a 24hr duration. According to the story our own sun was not created until the 4th day so it would be illogical to conclude that this creation account is using a 24hr time period to define a day. I only bring this up because I hear so much arguing about ancient dates, and the creation story. Simply put time is relative not absolute and to many of us forget that and try to justify our beliefs/thoughts/conclusions on the notion of time being absolute rather than relative.

We have incorrectly assumed the speed of light is a constant. It has changed.

The only person I have heard talk about this is Dr Chuck Missler.

How could there possibly be legends dating back 2 or 3 million years? First, how do you put a date on a legend? Second the very essence of legends means that you have to have a continuous oral tradition to pass the thing down the generations. There is nothing in any evidence dug up to suggest anywhere that any sentient human or other life form existed on the planet that far back.

And talking of the difficulties of placing an age on things, how do you put an age on iron? If these beings were so advanced, why did they use plain old iron? If they meant for carrying salt water they would have corroded aeons ago. We all know the effect salt has on iron. The fact that the structures haven't completely corroded away suggests that the metallic tubes are probably much younger then the sensational 150,000 years reported. And the "pipes", as the article has grudgingly hinted at, are probably simply the result of volcanic activity through fissures in the rock (not pyramid - rock).

Anywhere that evidence of ancient iron work has been discovered, archaeologists have also discovered kilns and other structures or iron-working implements. No mention of that here. Both "pyramid" and "pipes" are just natural phenomena - nothing to get excited about.

you would think that someone who wrote the above comment with all his reading would have made a intelligent comment ( instead he personifies the stupidity a sheep idiocy all over the U.S.)

first of all. our present day technology of smelting iron creates a alloy that corrodes.

it has been proven there was a way to refine it to make last almost forever that we have forgotten.

another point is there were elements present in the iron that our current technology could not identify.

another point is a efficient nuclear reactor that did not produce radioactive by products was a molten salt reactor.

this structure was most likely a molten salt reactor

But my analysis was nowhere near as informed as yours. I'm interested in learning about these things you mention.

"There is nothing in any evidence dug up to suggest anywhere that any sentient human or other life form existed on the planet that far back.
You are making assumptions based on known technology of today, however, there are extant artifacts that scientist cannot explain. For example: "New Delhi, July 18: Experts at the Indian Institute of Technology have resolved the mystery behind the 1,600-year-old iron pillar in Delhi, which has never corroded despite the capital's harsh weather.
"The pillar—over seven metres high and weighing more than six tonnes—was erected by Kumara Gupta of Gupta dynasty that ruled northern India in AD 320-540.
Stating that the pillar is "a living testimony to the skill of metallurgists of ancient India".
There are many examples of highly advanced technologies of the ancient past that no longer exist because tectonic subduction, glacier flows on land and the conveyor effect of the sea floors. Just as in as little as 10,000 years very little, if any vestiges of modern civilization will still exist. Serious scholars are presently studying the ancient Mahabharata for understanding principals of flying machines they called vimanna

absence of evidence is not always evidence of absence

There have been numerous civilizations on this Earth. They come and go. Very little remains as far as much proof that they ever existed. Much in the same way, when our time is up, it will take millions of years for the Earth to go through all the changes necessary to sustain life again. Millions of years for life to form, evolve and grow to an advanced, intellectual and technological stage. By then, most of our technological advances will have succumbed to erosion, rust, decay, fire, sedimentary build up, etc.

Is this all a theory? Of course. Is it a radical, irrational theory? Not any more than any other theory.

Through intuition I cannot help but agree entirely.

no one could decipher that better than your comment.
thank you for that intelligent speak.

trying to keep the 60,000 (or so) mile high perspective, ---it's what distinguishes the enlightened few - from the masses.
it's what is called "Leaders", instead of :followers.
thanks mike... (sounds like you) ;}xo

Indeed, there have been many civilizations on Earth during the 4-1/5 billion year history of the planet. Humans are the last iteration in a long series of technological advancement. The world we live in today are just emerging from another "dark age", where the sciences are but crude remnants of much more advanced technological methods of the ancients. There were no miracles, magic and divine gods, upon which human religions are based, only methods not understood by the observers. Of the estimated 15 billion years of the universe, there have been many outworld entities that have come and gone from planet Earth. Today, we don't call them "(G)god", but what they really are; extraterrestrials (ETs). This does not reduce claims of glory and divinity of (Biblical) characters, considering they have evolved over times, some older than the Earth. In terms of extreme age of artifacts of very ancient civilizations, little would have survived due to natural geological processes of tectonic plate subduction on both surface and sub-sea floor

Many ooparts are being located in natural granite, stone blocks that took hundreds if not millions year to fossilise. Now, how is it possible??
Many end up in wooden chests, burried deep in the belows of modern, darwiniam, archeology.

so alex c, where were you when the world was being created since you seem to know so much about it's age?

Alex....Don't be so quick to doubt and Chastize!!!! Your too quick to Chastize...Anything is possible. I myself have found toasters and the like in some of my digs, dating, possibly millions of years ago. I carbon dated a stapler at 6.5 million years....

I want whatever meds this guy is taking.

we only have evidence that humans "first evolved" in the past 100,000 years. That doesn't mean they have not been around for longer, on that the evidence is too old to have lasted this long. In all likelihood, humans have been on earth for longer than that, and they did not "evolve" out of Africa. There are civilizations in South America that are at least as old as the Pyramids, Sumeria and Indus Valley civilizations.

saying earth not 6000 yrs old, then saying, anything is possible. Thanks for the self contradiction.

28million years preposterous. While you believe that we are alone and that your ancestors werew chimps 4million years ago, for you, yes.. unacceptable.

Our highly advanced fore-fathers first came here 22 million years ago with beyond-light-speed tech. Considering that humankind in this Dern Universe is approx. 100billion years old, no doubt we could have had previous visitations. i.e. metal spheres found in billion plus year rock in S Africa, and the moon... 5.6 billion years old, hollow, a perfect sphere, made mainly of titanium, and intelligently placed to bio-engineer Earth.

Millions have learnt that that there's been 70plus years of et contact with Billy Meier in Switzerland with an advanced race, 3,500 years ahead of us in tech, medicine and knowledge of the Creational Laws. Many here share common ancestry with them. They live in a slightly different 'time' in the Taurus Constellation, star Taygeta on several inhabited planets. They travel the 500 light years to get here in 7 hours in their 'normal' ships, but also have a 'ship' on loan from their friends in the parallel Dahl Universe, that get's here in a millionth of a second. (photographs and cine on the site). They have given us over 20,000 pages of data! Meier's site is www.theyfly.com.

The case is well documented by US psychologist Randolph Winters in The Pleiadian Mission, written after he spent 3 months with Meier. Sci fi? You judge. Here's the investigation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EA0SBlY_sWo

Oh dear. There is not a single shred of evidence for any of that, not one. And the universe is approx 14 billion years old, not 100 billion. You are confusing what some nutjob writes with fact?

That sounds interesting. Normally people just object to these theories but if we look back to history, humans thought all space objects revolve around Earth, and that the Earth was flat-obviously that didn't work out. So I am always open to reading new theories- you never know when something might pop up that will change our whole way of thinking. Will be clicking your link.

"Let ask, is there another place where there is found strange radioactivity associated with artifacts? "
That seems like a good question, but a better one I think is "Do we have other occurences of similar "pipes", and do we know anything about how they likely formed/were made?"

The answer is yes. There are several places around the world where such pipes have occurred without any human intervention. It is an event that occurs in nature.

I think it is a little weird to assume that something is special about these particular pipes without any evidence suggesting thusly.

Just a simple wikipedia check will give you sources to the same phenomenon other places, away from and before any civilizations (that we know of), with detailed explanations on how they happen.

And you believe these theories (that's what they are) just because s.o. wrote them down on a Wikipedia page? People should stop regarding Wikipedia as "truth" to be believed without criticism. The crudest theories are believed if only they serve to 'explain away' things that are not explainable (so far) by ordinary and orthodox approaches at all.

sorry dude but that is total bullshit. skeptics will say anything.

It is a real mystery why modern skeptics and skeptical scientists only accept one type of information and adamantly deny everything else. That is simply not science.

Mystery solved, they are flat out liars, and being paid or threatend to do so.

Wikipedia is not a scientific source of information. Real, actual scientific classes and research papers are not allowed to use Wikipedia as source material for what I would hope would be for obvious reasons.

Wikipedia had never been a recognized valid data source, but that is changing due to recognition of collaborative intelligence.

However, the comment was to go there for sources of reliable data, so your reply added nothing to the discussion.

Thanks for stating the obvious.

you completely ignore the fact that homo sapiens have only been on this planet approximately 1 million yrs from fossil records. the homo genus only goes back another 4 or 5 million yrs in the fossil record. so its absolutely ridiculous to say there are man-made pyramids 28 million yrs old when man didn't even exist at the time. further more 100 million yrs ago there were dinosaurs you idiot. so are you saying dinosaurs made civilizations. what ever go quack your psuedo science somewhere else man. oh and radioactivity is what they use to determine the age of artifacts so no more radioactivity wont screw up the test just make it more accurate.

There is no absolutely definitive evidence that homo genus beings existed 28 million years ago but this was due to tectonic seduction that carried such artifacts into the planet's molten interior. As far as human-like ancestors not co-existing with dinosaurs there are cave paintings and petroglyph of humans and dinosaurs together. Modern science has access to only a very small slice of total Earth history -- even that most don't accept because it doesn't fit their model of history. However, there are places which still hold many mysteries of the past, frozen in the depths of polar ice and subterranean regions of the upper mantel

I wouldn't be so quick to call everyone an idiot. The earth has been around for 4.54 billion years. Do you really think that intelligent life has only existed for the last 50,000 years? I am sure that there has be numerous intelligent civilizations over the course of 4.54b years. I bet there has been intelligent life on this planet that would make our current civilization look down right stupid.

Out of the 4.54 billion years in which the earth has been in existence life took nearly a billion years to come about. The atmosphere at this time was mostly nitrogen and CO2, with water vapour, methane and ammonia declining and oxygen virtually non-existent. After about quarter of a billion years, life began using photosynthesis and from that point onwards life started creating oxygen, however it woud take another 2.5 billion years of photosythesis until there was enough oxygen to allow the creation of an ozone layer without which multicellular life could not evolve into complex enough lifeforms that had what could be properly described as a "nervous system" The reason for this is that without an ozone layer there is no protection against high levels of ultraviolet radiation. In other words sunburn would be so high it would kill off any complex forms of life. Once we have an ozone layer, however, complex life evolves and given another half a billion years and we've got fish. Another quarter of a billion years and we have mammals. So, even though life has been around for quite some time (around 3.6 billion years) as far as intelligence goes, most of it don't mean diddly-squat. Now even if we are willing to accept the possibility of reptilian life developing the equivalent of what one might call culture, i.e. animals grouping together in small herds in which members of those small herds are willing to sacrifice themselves for the other members of the herd, then we could have the level of co-operation between species members to organise themselves into anything complex enough for a civilization to evolve, but the earliest that this could have come about would have been around 250 million years. However, seeing as there is nothing in the fossil record that shows that brain size didn't really begin to develop to large enough ratios for serious intelligence to take hold until the development of simian life, and then only the latter part of those creature's evolution, then I can't see how any kind of civilization could have come about until the arrival of a subset of simians known as the genus "Homo". Even if a civilization arose hundreds of millions of years ago, this wouldn't of occurred overnight, there would have been a gradual development from small brain to large brain and add to that the the level of proliferation that a civilization would create, then I can't see how there wouldn't be sometthing in the fossil record that would indicate any of this. Civilizations may rise and fall as rapidly as over thousands even hundreds of years, but the kind of evolutionary development that this arises from takes millions, if not tens of millions of years and millions of years of evolution creates billions of creatures, there would be something in the fossil record surely. Looking at what the bonobos are capable of, I suppose there's a possibility of simian life evolving enough for the development of civilizations as far back as 2 million years. However, this is an estimation from the standpoint, purely as an educated guess from a laypersons point of view. I may be missing considerable information here relevant to brain, cognitive and psychological evolution. But as you can see, most of the time that life has been around, the vast majority of that time was spent on preparing the earth's atmosphere for oxygen production, 2.6 billion years used up there, and without oxygen, no ozone, no ozone no multicellular life. So I am willing to accept that life could have evolved to a state capable of producing a civilization maybe about 1 million years ago and I am fully aware that civilizations rise and fall, but the only thing that would lead to extinction would be either pollution or nuclear or bio warfare. For a civilization to develop, the species first has to become biologically dominant, otherwise it would be overrun by other species. Any civilization capable of developing that kind of complexity would have dominated the planet much like we have and the level of proliferation of that civilization would have been totally global. We are talking about a civilization that would have taken tens of thousands of years to develop and like I said the proliferation would have been global, so where is the fossil record of a global species that would have grown to at least tens of millions. At the moment the (fossil) record shows only a slow evolution from reptile to mammal to simian to homosapien to homosapien-sapien. Brain sizes don't appear to have arisen until around 250,000 years ago, however, I am also willing to accept that interglacial periods (vast (in that they could disrupt a civilization, but minor compared to a proper ice age) movements of ice between ice ages) of shifting icesheets could have wiped out evidence from a previously arisen civilization, but we are talking within the last quarter of a million years. I'm willing to accept that humans may have developed civilizations over the past few hundred thousand years, however, I have heard that modern humans (homosapien-sapien as opposed to homosapien) had a higher degree of cognitive ability when it came to the ability to conceptualise. For example, a creature may be able to conceptualise to the extent that it can think about itself, but that doesn't mean that it has the ability to think about itself thinking about itself. There is an order of magnitude that differentiates between being able to think and being able to philosophise. Without philosophy there's no mathematics and no engineering or technology, or at least no really complex technology and without that there's no chance of a civilisation taking hold, so, the question of how old can a complex civilisation be, is without doubt a can of nemotode worms that may or may not glow in the dark.

"I wouldn't be so quick to call everyone an idiot. The earth has been around for 4.54 billion years. Do you really think that intelligent life has only existed for the last 50,000 years? I am sure that there has be numerous intelligent civilizations over the course of 4.54b years. I bet there has been intelligent life on this planet that would make our current civilization look down right stupid."

I agree with Ernest. Just because we do not have the concrete evidence of human bones, does not mean we do not have the evidence. Nobody can prove how the pyramids were built, or how the ancient megaliths around the world were carved so perfectly out of solid granite and moved and stacked together without mortar to fit perfectly together, or why this was done...The pyramids and sphinx in all likelihood pre-date the ancient Egyptian civilization. Just as the megaliths of Peru such as sachsayhuaman and qoricancha pre-date the Inca.
One can see how crudely the Incas built their stonework on top of the sophisticated and much more ancient megaliths.
Modern science wants everything to fit in to the Darwinian theory so they are always looking at archaeological finds though that lens. This is faulty science in itself, but modern science has become too political and those who present findings that go against Darwinism are laughed at as heretical.

Izzy Mccracken "Dinosaurs were around 100 million years ago". Technically speaking, there are remnants of them still around today. But it is a commonly known fact that they died off en masse 360 million years ago. Maybe you should exercise some caution before throwing the word 'idiot' around.

28 million years sounds about right to me. There is no way the Egyptians built those pyramids. I firmly believe they were built by beings far more advanced then us, and that includes the hieroglyphs, monolliths, etc....

Well stated! I commend your judgement. People that have learned from books, are pretty close minded, not all though. One must have an open mind. Otherwise, you may not see the forest, for the trees.

I took the time to scan your blog. my question remained 'evidence?'
You really don't help your cause when you admit the Ica Stones are fake but say they are still appropriate evidence as, basically, the faker got lucky... Our evolution can be traced back through various incarnations a few million years, with 'us' currently being about 200k years? I am sure we will push that back and also find some of the older species did more than just survive (e.g. Recent finds in Africa showing potential ritual burial 3 million years ago). BUT you present no evidence and, as mentioned by another comment, it comes across as whacky as the 'young creation' people who misunderstand the evolution of religious texts insist on. Sorry. These 'pipes' are most likely a natural process we need to understand, they seem more bio/geological than manufactured (don't seem to actually function, different diameters, natural look etc). Personally, I WILL bet on a pre ice age civilisation - with younger dryas comet event being the root of global flood stories etc...

It could be a volcanic tube or some other unusual rock formation, we shouldn't jump to conclusion that it's plumbing....humans (homo sapiens) haven't even been around 150K years, we were still semi-ape-like creatures...

I am fairly sure that Homo Neanderthal and his neighbors would object to being referred to as semi ape like creatures. Better check the time line of Epochs and Eras against Evolutionary timelines for Hominids.

Actually, that is well within the range many scientist put us as being genetically human. Most say closer to 200,000 years. Still, when you look at these things it is obviously a natural formation even if it isn't obvious how it came to be.

Tsurugi's picture

....and yet we should remember that many of the ruins of ancient sites we know of today appeared to be natural formations before someone discovered differently and cleaned them up.

A good example is Cholula Tlachihualtepetl in Mexico. It looks like a hill with a spanish cathedral on top. But that "hill" is a friggin' giant pyramid.

How about the Homo Capensis ? How long have they been around ? From what I have read about those critters, if in fact they do or did exist, there are literally hundreds of their skulls surviving. I would assume other bones survived also. The skulls are unlike our human skulls in several ways. First, they have an elongated structure. The bony structure is thicker and heavier than human skulls. The cranial cavity is 25% to 33% larger than humans, indicating they may have had a larger brain and consequently more intelligent than humans. Instead of 3 parietal lobes that homo Sapiens have, the Homo Capensis has only 2 lobes. The eye sockets are larger and rounder and more shallow than human eye sockets, and at the rear of the skull there are a hole or two that some surmise nerves or blood vessels passed through, possibly to nourish the larger brain. DNA has been obtained and tested, and the preliminary results indicate that these critters are NOT human, and if they did mate with a human, the first generation offspring would be sterile. Now, here we are, into the 21st century, and we are just getting scientific evidence that Capensis exists. How many other critters exist in heaven, and on Earth, that we don't know about ? Scientists estimate that about 13.5 billion years have gone by since the Big Bang. How many other Big Bangs occurred prior, in the sea of time we call Eternity ? It is impossible to tell what artifacts of the past still exist, and what may be discovered. To dismiss out of hand any possibility without investigation is the height of ignorance and arrogance.

homo capensis is a load of crap. there has never been a homo capensis in science. in 1913 they found the boskop man which was a skull that was human but with some defects. many claimed it was a new species but there is no evidence to confirm or back the claim.also larger brains do not mean higher intelligence. for example dolphins have larger brains than we do. now while they may be intelligent they dont use tools and form societies and civilization or do science or anything near our mental capabilities. so brain size doesnt necessarily prove intelligence. a much better prediction of intelligent is brain to body size ratios but even that isnt perfect.

Well Izzy, it seems that these large skulled hominids, the Homo Capensis, might have been intelligent enough to hide themselves successfully from the murderous Homo Sapiens. Tell me, if you had a rifle in your hands and you saw one, what would you do ? The facts are that the preliminary DNA study has been done and it shows this critter is not human. Let's see what followup DNA tests show, and go from there. Time will tell and neither what you or I think will change the facts. Just don't expect the final decision to be made while you or I am still drawing breath in our current incarnations.

Your assertion that brain size does not indicate level of intellect -- is true, to an extent. Creation and use of tools doesn't either, considering how humans have used tools to control, destroy and manipulate the natural order of the environment and other living things. True intellect is not just knowledge of how things work, but also why. Human based knowledge without wisdom of how to properly use it is NOT true intellect. Humans have only six recognized senses, while other high mammals may have far more senses that make them symbiotic with the environment in which they exist. They don't need tools or machines to live complete lives humans could not even imagine. Modern humans are not native to this planet, but have been crossbred with other outworld species

I would like citations for this. Who has the hundred skull, how complete are they, how did we determine parietal lobe structures, provenonce of the DNA. What is described seemes like a hyper visual sociopath genius.


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In 1526, the Spanish conquistador Francisco de Montejo arrived on the Yucatan Peninsula of Mexico and found most of the great Maya cities deeply eroded and unoccupied. Many generations removed from the master builders, engineers, and scientists who conceived and built the cities, the remaining Maya they encountered had degenerated into waring groups who practiced blood rituals and human sacrifice.

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