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Is there truth in Creation Stories?

Let’s talk about creation stories!

What’s your favorite creation story and why?

Do you think there is truth to the story?

If you believed (or believe) this creation story, how would it make you feel about the world and your role in it?

Creation Story

Favorite creation story and why: The Big Bang, because it is not as bad as the other stories.

Any truth to it: The Hubble Doppler Red shift implies an expanding universe that ought to have an origin.

I think the universe always was and always will be, forever and ever without end.

Creation Story

I am the “Crazy Old Man”.   I write supposition essays any thing that interests me.  The forgoing essays are not fact.  Many years ago I wrote the supposition .”THE BALNACED SOLAR SYTEM THEROM” . It is in my book “Crazy Old Man,An Anthology” (haroldcohn.com).   The forgoing supposition essay sttaes the solar system will colapse upon itself.   I assume the universe will do the same ,   Crazy Old Man

Harold J. Cohn

Biblical Creation Account

My favourite creation story is the one found in the bible because it is written so simbly so that even a little child can understand whilst being consistent with the most complex scientific principles. For this reasons I believe that it is not just a story but an account hence it is true and so it gives purpose and meaning to life and helps makes sense of what is going in the world and see beauty in it despite the darkness and turmoil that their sometimes exists in it.

Religious Text

The great founders of the major religions understood that Reality is Transcendent.  But what is transcendent is not material and therefore can not be described in concrete terms.  The only was that speech could be informative was by the use of metaphor and allegory.  Unfortunately, being  imprisoned within relativity, few could understand that and therefore understood the metaphors and allegories as concrete fact.  That is the sad story of religion.

To illustrate, Adam was expelled from the Garden of Edan for eating the fruits from the Tree of Knowledge.  Since when did knowledge grow on trees? And hasn’t knowledge been of great improtance to us?

commonality

when there is commonality to creation myths...it lends to some hidden truths. I love Graham Hancock’s book “Fingerprints of the Gods” for this. he really breaks down commonality between different mythologlies pointing to some distant culture or memory of the past. 

Creation stories

‘Human’ life on our planet may be far older than we know. Certainly there have been cataclysms, advanced cultures, etc. right through the ages. Is our history older than we think? What would have happened had planet tilted on its axis in some ancient age? Would there be ocean where now land exists and vice versa? Certainly, it would have wiped out civilization and sent us right back to animal existance. What if ‘we’ left this planet a very long time ago, only to return in a later timeframe to create a hybrid being, using ourselves and the bipedal ‘animals’ we found on the new Earth. Was the Creator that most people worship today a technologically advanced Being or Beings who shortcircuited our DNA in order to control us, especially considering our former (and current) history. Looking at our urge to ‘escape’ into space, have we done this before? To me, the Divine is a vibrational energy which can take any form. Our creation appears to have been a mixture of the Darwinian and the Unknown, though many sources, including the Biblical accounts, would have us as hybrid beings.

 

 

distant past

Interesting speculations. Also, looking at the world views of the past we see that they were based on the ‘technologies’ of the times. So we need to not let today’s technology inform our concept of reality.

The concept of a grat creator, whether having positive or negative atributes, is never-the-less dfiinitive and therefore a part of the creation – a logical fallacy.  This has been brought on by the attmept of the intellect to grasp the Transcendent – a task which it can not accomplish.

Creation Stories

The Hawaiian creation stories are interesting as they describe their arrival in Hawaii from the Yellow Sea before the sea levels rose (6,000 years ago). Then they were swept away by a tsunami to Alaska where they stayed for many generations but returned to Hawaii about 2,200 years ago. When they sailed south they discovered a distant land – Tahiti and found golden haired people from Peru already living there. All these stories are in chants which used to be remembered word for word, but luckily were recorded by early ethnographers, but have been ignored or misinterpreted.

 

Golden Haired people from Peru?

The indigenous people from Western South America living there about 2000 years ago would not have been Caucasians with blond hair. I would therefore suspect the reference to ‘golden haired people’ to have been an attempt at seeing the past as a ‘golden age’ – a common misconception.

Creation Stories

The Hawaiian creation stories are interesting as they describe their arrival in Hawaii from the Yellow Sea before the sea levels rose (6,000 years ago). Then they were swept away by a tsunami to Alaska where they stayed for many generations but returned to Hawaii about 2,200 years ago. When they sailed south they discovered a distant land – Tahiti and found golden haired people from Peru already living there. All these stories are in chants which used to be remembered word for word, but luckily were recorded by early ethnographers, but have been ignored or misinterpreted. 

The golden haired people of Peru were from a variety of origins – the ancient people of Tulan – which is the American term for Atlantis or Azatlan. These people likely arrived in the Americas about 19,000 years ago as the blond haired bearded giants (Solutreans/Clovis people/Cro Magnon man). Later there were sea traders from the Mediterranean and even the Persian Gulf – the city of Ur – trading for copper and tin in the Bronze age. The Iriquois, Uruguay and Yurok people were all river traders with a middle eastern language and are believed to be remnants of these sea traders. Many of these people had golden hair and green eyes like the Kurds, some Iranians – Kalash, Bakhtiari, the Canary Islanders, the blonde people of Morocco and the people of Charchapoya. The Red haired Easter Islanders DNA  as well as the DNA of the golden haired Araucano of Chile, proves these people were a remnant of these paleolithic Europeans – from a time when blonde and red hair was far more common – a remant of people of the ice age – clearly man had adapted to the weaker sunlight and over many generations had dumped the melanin. Now with the planet going through a warmer phase, Melanin has become important again – hence the age of the black haired people (brown skin and brown eyes) began about 5,500 years ago.

 

predecessors of indiginous Americans

According to Wikipedia, indigenous American Indians migrated from Siberia over a land bridge to present day Alaska. DNA and linguistics analysis seems to confirm that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_indigenous_peoples_of_t...

Biblical creation/renewal!

CREATION (A LOOONG TIME AGO):
“In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.”

REBELLION/WAR BY ANGELS (7,000+ YEARS AGO):
“And the earth BECAME void and waste” (from 1st worldwide flood).

RENEWAL FOR MANKIND (7,000 YEARS AGO):
“And the spirit hovered upon the waters. Then God said: “Let there be light...”

So the chronological dilemma is to determine which previous event a particular creation myth is speaking about.

The truth of the Torah always triumps over the traditions and theories of men! And knowing the truth puts our existence in context and perspective – as well as how we should be living our lives in this world.

TheDailyWarrior

Torah Truth

It seems a little ridiculous that the Earth was created before the Sun, and that light and the distinction between night and day were created before the Sun, and that there should have been any evenings or mornings before the existence of the Sun; also.that vegetation was created before the Sun.

Earth before Sun?

Not sure what you’re responding to or trying to say. The heavens were created first, then the Earth.

TheDailyWarrior

Earth before Sun?

TheDailyWarrior wrote: “The heavens were created first, then the Earth.”

I had not mentioned the heavens, which means the sky.

Creation Myth

The whole myth of Genesis is actually borrowed literally from the Hindu and the Mesopotamian literature as an allegory of the appearance of the life on earth. The mythographers of that myth used deities to explain to the vulgar how they imagined that the life appeared. Paradoxically, in almost all ancient mythologies in the beginning there were the Chaos (void) and the water! After that the main deity or deities fabricated everything in the universe, but what important in this myth is, is how the man was created. In the ancient literature, as Dr. Inman points out, in the ancient languages, the term for “garden” is used as a metaphor for woman. See “Ancient Faiths,” i. 52; ii. 553. Asherah, El’s and Yahweh’s wife was often named as tree, grove, locus etc in Vulgate. The tree had a phallic meaning together with its fruits that metaphorically meant the “sperms” of the procreation. That is why we read in the paleo-Hebrew literature (see Louis Ginzberg’s “The Legends of the Jews”) that Eve gave also to all animals in Paradise to eat the fruit of the three of knowledge, except “phoenix” that refused, insinuating that through the sperm life propagated on earth.

Hence, we have the male concept or tree of life and knowledge of Eden -that they were united in one single huge tree as we read in the ancient Jewish literature insinuating that life was propagated all over the world through the sperm and knowledge through the genes- as a phallus and the female concept, the garden representing the yoni and the fruits of the tree, the sperms of the procreation. According to the Hindu literature, “Meru” is the equivalent Jewish Garden of Eden in which Siva or Mahadeva the creator of the nature has his abode and near him is Bhavani or Parvati, his sister and wife, the goddess of Yoni the queen of the mountain Meru (the Garden). Is it a coincidence that in other ancient mythologies the main deity bore his sister or wife from his own body like Zeus with Athena and Hera and Lady Wisdom with Yahweh?

In the paleo-Hebrew literature we read that the tree of knowledge was immense and the same we read for the equivalent Hindu tree of knowledge “Jambu” which after passing through “the circle of the moon,” it divides it into four streams, flowing towards the four cardinal points. The same we read in the Jewish literature about the four rivers.

The equivalent Hindu Mahadeva’s sister and wife, is the “androgynous” in the Mosaic myth, originally Adam and Lilith, and after Adam & Eve who is sister because she is from Adam’s own flesh, but also a wife, just like in the Hindu myth and not only (see Isis-Hathor and Osiris)!

Some authors argue that Adam derives from the Babylonian goddess Adamu which means “soil”, “earth” and it has actually the same meaning in the Semitic vocabulary.

The allegory of the Fall or the expulsion of man and the fallen angels in Jewish literature, as well as in other mythologies like the myth of fire of Prometheus, are both based of the same rebellion of an "angel" (Lucifer the messenger of light or knowledge) just like in the religion of the Brahmans, where Moisasure, the Hindu Lucifer, becomes envious of the Creator's resplendent light, and leading a legion of rebellious spirits against Brahma, declares war against him, like Zeus and his eleven gods and goddesses against Kronos. The Fall of man on earth, was a Hindu allegory of the soul which firstly was divine living on the 7th sky together with Brahma (we read of the same belief in the Jewish literature that among the “chambers” of the firmament, there was one with souls guarded by Metatron the lesser Yahweh) and its fall represents its embodiment in a carnal body on earth which metaphorically signifies its “death”! Soul, became despiritualized and was given a fleshly body, - represented by the expulsion from Eden- in Genesis' myth in that significant allegoric verse, "Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skin, and clothed them"! The “coats of skin” signifies the human body! Hindus invented the notion of the soul to explain its perpetual incarnations in a human body until its enlightenment and purification. The same dogma we read not only in the Egyptian “The book of the dead” where the soul tries to pass the seven guarded gates of the underworld by using spells enclosed in the coffins in order to reach the boat of Amun-Ra to the eternity, but also in Plato’s Republic in the chapter “The dream of Err” in which the soul reaches the purgatory and drinks from the “river of forgetfulness” in order to “forget” its past deeds and to be incarnated in another body until its purification. Drinking from this river, the soul “forgets” its past incarnations but doesn’t get rid of its past sins, which the supposed new human body tries to atone!

World View

The historical mythologies help to inform us of the world views of the past but fail us when considering modern scientific knowledge of the cosmic reality. Quantum physics, though, does confirm the Vedic concept of manifestation of the Transcendent into the material reality that we experience. What comes to mind is particles coming into existence and then disappearing from it-- all in an instant. Also, Quantum Entanglement – particles, even light years apart, locked together implying that our concept of time and distance is flawed.

From a consciousness point of view, the tree has its roots unseen reflecting the Transcendent and the branches and fruit are what we see within the manifest relativity. The tree root / fruit metaphor reflects the contrast between the experience of the ever silent and absolute steadiness of transcendental consciousness vs the transient experience of eating the fruit. The first bit is so blissful but each successive one less so causing some discontent etc. Eden would be the transcendent and eating the fruit would be the specific knowledge of and the ups and downs of the ever changing relative world –not absolute bliss. The general populace, having no transcendental experience, would therefore attempt to understand in material terms imagining super humans or gods and the world as they experienced it.

Creationism

To believe the theoretical system of master-servant existence or science-physics used to depend on books.  Computers, though relatively infantile will eventually replace human beliefs in either as the capacity to deliver a broadly expanded understanding of the universe grows with computers evolving.  Look how we all have changed to view our universe with space exploration to follow how myths influenced the future by inspiring the desire to explore.  We all want to see more of what is the stuff of our universe to explain our origins.

John of the Illini territory

dalton

I don’t belive in Creations Stories, I think the men is a product of chance, and they was the one that worked.

For me the Creations Stories are all to keep humanity attached in a church.

 

Is there truth in Creation Stories?

All religions, monotheist and non-monotheist, tell about the same story. They focus on the creation of the Human Being and its relation with the creator(s). The overlook the main subject: how the Universe came into reality, and if a living creature appeared on the surface of a planet probably others have appeared on other planets. So, these creature would come to believe like we, Earth creatures, to a or many creator(s). Do you think the Universe is a god (s) creation. If he created us, and them, did he, or it, makes us a living universe because as you may know we are flesh, muscles, bones  on and within which live bacteria, microbs, virus. Is/are our creator(s) god(s) of our solar system or our milky way?

Creation

After the Big Bang and Creation of the Heavens and the Earth the Angels took notice of Earth and started visiting. Over the ages they watched us grow and became curious. Interacting, helping with technology and having children with the humans creating the giants. When God told Lucifer to stop corrupting the Earth the War in Heaven began. Angels were cast out and Lucifer became Satan. The beginning of Genesis tells us the earth was flooded(direct translation is complete flood) then God recreated(direct translation) the Earth and recreated man in His own image until Adam's partial flood(direct translation). 

Genesis 1:1-31 and the Management Process

Genesis authorship is attributed to Moses. Moses was raised to be a leader. As a leader, he should have been instructed in management. The story of creation in Genesis is an early example of the management process. 

“Let there be light” – Heavens and earth were created but there was no light. “Planning and decision making” requires to “see” what you have to deal with first.

“Let there be a separation of water from sky and earth...” – This is a transition from planning and decision making to organizing. Genesis 1:6-25 relates how creation was organized. 

“Leading” – Genesis 1:26-28 – The purpose mankind was created –  "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

God gave this command to male and female equally. There was no chain of command established between women and men.

Not only mankinds’ first commandment was to manage creation, but God gave mankind the resources to manage it. 

“Controlling” – Monitoring and evaluating activities – Genesis 1:29-31 and Genesis 2:1-3.

David Doble

Leadership

Management is subordinate to leadership and is only an obvious need in complex highly technical societies such as our own. In the past, demagoguery was all that was needed.

Science & God

Gerald Schroeder [Proof of God in Five Minutes | Gerald Schroeder] (search his name if the link doesn’t work) does a great job of demonstrating how the Genesis account jibes with what our generally accepted theories about physical reality propose. If you’re interested in this topic, you really do yourself a disservice by ignoring his books.

I’m a Christian, but I see the Garden of Eden story as an allegory. I mean, how can you not? Ethereal garden, walks with God, talking snakes, magical fruit trees, people formed from dust or ribs...the whole thing screams mythos at us, trying to get us to take it figuratively.

I personally believe it alludes to a previous existence in another dimension that all of us experienced, and we rebelled, as in the story, against our Creator. This life is our rebirth, where we acquire the knowledge of good and evil that we sought in the Garden and are reconciled with our Creator.

Religion stories for Earth

Sounds like commentary on creation stories are limited to Judeo Christian stories without any other stories from other cultures. Hawaii has a reference but barely any other references from other people's cultures. Western culture has sought to erase all other cultures from Earth so only a global monoculture remains.  I hold no value in Judeo Christian gibberish.  I hope other  participants have creation stories that aren't the dribble thus far submitted about god, angels and devils!

John of the Illini territory

Creation stories

The best work I have seen trying to understand the stories in the old testament is Christian O’Brien in his book Genius of the Few. He examines the book of Enoch and determines the Anunaki are a very tall race of people that once existed (Cro Magnon Man?) and Lord Anu was an ancestral figure. He determined that the Nephilim (giants) were taking the women of man as their wives and the result was an abomination, then there was a catastrophic natural event (Comet) that destroyed civilizations globally through massive tsunami that swept across all the oceans of the world. Then the sea levels rose. Then Lord Anu and his people came to Lebanon from the south – the ancient civilization of India from whence the Hindu religion emanated from. They were agriculturalists and they came and planted a garden in Eden, Lebanon. Another group – the Shining Ones, came from the west – they wore white or purple robes and were well versed in celestial navigation and medicine (survivors of Atlantis in the Americas –  the Celtic Sea Kings and Tuaregs of the Sahara were also a remnant of these people). They met and combined the remnants of their destroyed civilizations in Lebanon which then spread up the Mesopotamia river and down the Tigris about ten thousand years ago and formed a new ‘beginning’ of civilization. Lord Anu - an actual ancestral figure has over time been elevated to the position of God. The story of Adam and Eve is a story designed to entertain rather than carrying any worthy historical information. The Catholic church has also modified and erased many stories so that the true meaning of the old testament has been turned into a nonsense.

Creation stories

Many early cultures talk of their ancestors coming out of a cave. 12 different native American tribes say their ancestor came from a cave in Cuba. Many cultures also talk of their beginning was from a time when the skys were copper coloured and no stars or sun was visible. Both these observations suggest they were survivors of a catastrophic event – such as a comet impact where firestorms swept across the planet killing everyone except for those that happened to be hiding in a cave at the time of the firestorm. The copper coloured sky would be because of all the dust and smoke form the catastrophic event. This black layer – with an iridium layer embedded in it has been identified and dated at 12,900 years ago. I can imagine it took at least a thousand years for man to repopulate the planet and reform civilization after this event.

Creation Stories

I keep thinking that every primitive people has its creation stories but its knowledg of nature was very small.

So their imagination created all these stories.

Creation Stories

Then we can think that we are not an authchthonous race.

You defend that the human race is not original from Earth.

However this is very difficult to prove.

Eternal rhythm

I don't believe in creation, I think it's just one of the many illusions of man.
With only five senses the ability of man to understand the cosmos is very reduced.
The more you know and more it remains to know, as Lao-Tzŭ said ourselves are an illusion, the matter itself is an illusion, even Eraclito said, everything is fire and everything flows.
The Chinese and many ancestral peoples - and also I with them - they believed that time was circular, without beginning and endlessly, after all it is only a human conception and as in many other things the man will have to abandon easy mechanical conceptions, Western man would do well to look at the world even through the eyes of other peoples, especially those ancient ones.

The Day of Creation

Creation stories were written to give people a feeling for who they were and where they belonged––and what or who...they belonged to: an outsider or a member of the tribe; the persecuted, a faithful servant of who: the god, the priest, the master?

It's not that different today, except they've become founding stories. In the last few centuries, they've often been stories of revolutions: the French and American revolution, the Russian or the Chinese revolution. 

Unfortunately, all things run down: Christ's championing of the poor––breeds Calvin's pre-destination: you were born to be rich or poor (Wealth is a sign of god's favor). Which led to the prosperity gospel (God wants you to be rich). In the communist orbit, Russia becomes a land of oligarchs. In China, the peasants and the workers––two of the five stars on the Chinese flag––are still oppressed. (From The Heretic’s Book of Death & Laughter: The Role ofReligion in Just About Everything. Due out later this year).

Here’s a take, from the diary of Jabàr––an illuminator at the court of Tamerlane         in Samarkand, in the late 14th century. I’ve called it The Cup of Jamshid:                           

We know that at the beginning of time,                                                                                                   your body swam through an endless golden sea.                                               (The 14th century Sufi poet Hafez) 

Passing through the mouth of the cave, I spied, on a simple wooden table,                      a large silver goblet––which I recognized from my readings in Persian lore                 as the Cup of Jamshid—that allows one to view anything they so desire,         through all time and space. I knew as well from the legend, that he who             gazes into the Cup is allowed but one vision. 

And there I paused—before dipping the Cup into the pool that                        bubbled up within the Cave. What would I so want to see? The                        thought dizzied me. Samarkand, a thousand years from now?                             That would be a blasphemy. A hundred things passed across                                   my mind. And then...of course... it came to me: a thought so                      stupendous and vertiginous that I could scarce imagine its                            inception. Then, carefully filling the Cup to the brim, I                                   whispered: ‘Show me the day of Creation.’

Slowly, the waters clouded—altering to shades of grey and                             white. A faint sound of thunder could be heard. And suddenly,                              as if they had been cast up from a great ocean, there passed                          before my eyes, every form of life. And a Voice, as from a great                 distance, intoned how the Beginnings of all engendered things...

…spew forth God's creations. Multiform and formless.                                   Leggéd, wingéd, hoofed, and wondered. Eyed and eyeless.                                  From the vortex of the universe: limbed and limbless,                                  tongued and tongueless they come. Overflowing the earth                                    and the stars. Doves and dinosaurs. Pirates and poets                                      (and all the thieves that ever stole a doubloon...or a kiss).

Each with their special form of love: love of earth and                                    clouds, skies and tempests. Love of written things and silver                              rings. Love of sounds and ancient mounds that hold their                                 secrets well. Love of heaven, love of hell.                  

Love of crystal waters. Love of witches' brew. And all the                                       love of all the things that God has known...He gives to you.                       

The voice ended. The waters subsided. Slowly, I placed the Cup                     upon the table. Slowly, I returned out the mouth of the cave, and                    retraced my steps; gazing back but once, to see that it had been                   effaced and had disappeared into the contour of the hill.

Of this I spoke not a word to anyone; lest they think me mad.                                                                                                                (From my novel  The Illuminator)

 

 

 

 

Steven Darian

Heaven and Earth

Should the adage that heaven above, hell below, and earth is the devil’s own be part of the creation myth? By any standard there is no rationale that a god created earth and everything in it for a devil and use humanity as toys.  As child like as creation stories go, eventually people get passed the simplicity of childhood unless they never get over their fear.  For every God box in Europe, no matter how ornate, is still the imagination of someone set in stone.  Such heavy handed tactics driven by greed and desire for domination on the devil’s playground were a constant until the development frayed in the new world and quickly became redundant.  The reality of freedom over powered stone God boxes as they evaporated in the mists of time. Creationism is the work of man inventing stories with child like ingenuity.

John of the Illini territory

Creation Myths

Creation myths are interesting, usually derived from the limited knowledge of humankind in general and their writers. However, this is not the origin of the biblical creation myth. The truth of how the universe works have progressed with increased knowledge of modern science. Are the creation myths currently valid against the light of general revelation? I believe the creation account of the Bible is as valid today as it was when written. When considering the biblical creation story, one must journey in the Bible beyond the standard reference to Genesis chapter 1 as the entire creation story. Timewise, Genesis 1:1 represents nine billion years, while Genesis 1:2 ~ 2:4 represents only about four billion years of the estimated 13.8-billion-year life of the universe.

The Bible proclaims what happened in the universe over time before man arrived, while modern science seeks to explain how it happened over time. Considering Genesis 1:1, one of the most familiar scripture known declared what happened: the universe had a beginning, and science explains how it happened in the Big Bang theory. Therefore, the biblical proclamation was valid when written around 1400 BC. The ancients could not have known this, so where did this information come from?

The formation of the solar system was declared in Genesis 1:2~2:4 ---

1st day – Hadean Eon, Earth was without form, and void, let there be light. – (Birth of our Sun)

2nd day -- Archean Eon, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters and let it divide the waters from the waters. (Formation of the layers of the atmosphere)

3rd day -- Proterozoic Eon, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place and let the dry land appear. (Plate tectonics)

4th day – Late Proterozoic Eon, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: (Acknowledgement of the previous birth of the Sun, its development and purposes before the coming explosion of life in the Cambrian)

5th day -- Phanerozoic Eon, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life. (Cambrian Explosion)

6th day -- Cenozoic Era, Let Earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of Earth after his kind. (Advent of the mammals)

7th day – Late Cenozoic Era, (Declaration of completeness)

 

This information precedes all humankind altogether and does not come from any previous creation myth.

Bishop Driver

4th day

Gary Driver wrote: “Acknowledgement of the previous birth of the Sun, its development”

What was made on the fourth day?

The reference to light on day

The reference to light on day one is translated from the Hebrew word ‘ore,’ which means illumination. On day four, the reference to light(s) is translated from the Hebrew word ‘maor,’ which means a luminary.  The statement of the two great luminaries of day four is not a contradiction to the reference to the illumination of the solar system declared on day one. The light of day one is from the source only mentioned on day four. On day four, God made a statement that he created the sun, moon, and stars, not a reference when they were created. God also declared to ‘let there be a firmament in verse six and then declared he ‘made the firmament’ in verse seven. There is no contradiction there either. The firmaments are also the same. Day four uses the conjunctions “for” and “to” of day four eleven times to reflect God's intention for the two luminaries. After making the assessment of the progress of the sun from its young lower light to increase to almost the main sequence level we witness today, he declared it to be good.

Bishop Driver

The reference to light on day

Gary Driver wrote: “God also declared to ‘let there be a firmament in verse six and then declared he ‘made the firmament’ in verse seven. There is no contradiction there either.”

Of course there is no contradiction, who would suggest such a thing since the two lines appear in the same day? The question was on what was created in day four. This has nothing to do with the firmament of day two.

The question is what was made on day four. You have not provided a statement of anything that was made on day four except the making of a statement about the things that were actually made on day four. So was day four a day of rest, like the Sabbath?

I do not perceive a reference

I do not perceive a reference to creation during this period. As stated, it is an assessment of the progress of the life-giving Sun for the purposes stated in the scripture for day five and beyond. However, since the creation account is not a series of instant phenomena, I would not call it a day of rest.

Bishop Driver

not perceive a reference

Gary Driver wrote: “I do not perceive a reference to creation during this period.”

Just after verse thirteen in which the end of the discussion of the events of the third day is declared, the discussion of the events of the fourth day begins.

It states: “Let there be [...] Let them be [...] And so it was. God made the two great lights [...] God set them [...] the fourth day.”

This includes a command for the luminaries to come into existence as though they had not existed until then. “And so it was” means that the events came about as a result of the command. “God made” means that God created. “God set” refers to the position of the luminaries. If you do not think this is a reference to creation, then what would be? Regardless of the particular Hebrew word used, if it translates into English as “God made the two great lights”, then it most certainly is an act of creation.

Gary Driver wrote: “As stated, it is an assessment of the progress of the life-giving Sun for the purposes stated”

What could be an assessment is: “God saw that it was good.” But “Let there be” is a command, not an assessment. 

Gary Driver wrote: “However, since the creation account is not a series of instant phenomena, I would not call it a day of rest.”

If it were a series of instant phenomena, would you call it a day of rest? In what manner could any day be a series of instant phenomena? Is the seventh day a day of instant phenomena? What makes it a day is “the fourth day”, and what makes it “rest” or not is whether work is done, not whether the phenomena are instant. (But perhaps you are using a very peculiar meaning for the word “instant” that is not the ordinary meaning of the word “instant” and only piling confusion and mystique and unaccountability on your writing. If I may say so, “a series of instant phenomena” is totally irrelevant to the argument, and therefore you do not have a valid reason for your stance in the absence of a proper excuse.) In the book of Exodus, chapter twenty, verse eleven is written: “in six days [God] made the heavens and the earth and the sea and all that these hold, but on the seventh day he rested, that is why [God] has blessed the sabbath day and made it sacred”.

Verse 16, God made two lights

Verse 16, God made two lights. The word ‘made’ is translated from the Hebrew asah, which means to fashion, accomplish… and it was so.      

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/h6213/kjv/wlc/0-1/   

Lights’ purpose TO divide the day from night, FOR signs, FOR seasons, FOR days, and (FOR) years. These are mainly time-based purposes. And TO give light to the Earth. Early Earth days, the Earth/Moon relationship and character were quite different. Sunlight about 70% of what it is today being the main sequence stage of the Sun to light the Earth. With day and night already established in day one, the division of day and night is to fashion it from an estimated 8-hour day in the Hadean Eon to 22 hours at the time of the assessment (4th day). The early Earth started with an estimated 1,434 solar days a year. The close moon aided in slowing the Earth down to accomplish fewer solar days per year. The distance from the moon was 40,000 miles in the Hadean; God set it to 223,000 miles by the assessment time. The accomplished expanded length helps maintain a constant 23-degree tilt for the seasons as declared in Psalm 104:19a, “He appointed the moon for seasons.” This fourth day is not a day of rest neither a 24-hour duration. This information is the result of obeying Isaiah 40:26a to also look to the natural world for creation answers, “Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these things.”

In Exodus 23:11 and 31:17, the preposition “in” was added to the original writing during the language translation. The original 23:11 reads, “for six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them.” The days are not limited to 24-hour interpretation. God’s messenger angel Gabriel was told to give Daniel understanding to the vision of the empires in Daniel 8:26 – “And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days”. Gabriel’s explanation declared the evening and morning would take many days. History of the empires affirms the duration of the evening and morning lasted over a thousand years. Therefore, the evening and morning phase is not an exclusive 24-hour reference. 

Bishop Driver

Verse 16, God made two lights

Gary Driver wrote: “The word ‘made’ is translated from the Hebrew asah, which means to fashion, accomplish”

This means that the lights were made out of what was not the lights before, and were therefore created, otherwise no making would have been accomplished. If the lights had already existed, then where would they have been? The precise length of the day is irrelevant. The length of the day by the light of the Sun is determined by the rotation of the Earth. There could not have been evenings and mornings if the Sun had not already existed with the effect of allowing days to be recognised. But in the section of the fourth day, it is written that God said “Let there be lights”, and then “So it was” which mean that they could not have existed until the fourth day. This is plainly ridiculous. The lights would have already determined the divisions of time such as days and years if they existed before the fourth day. The length of the day may change and is still changing, which means that the purpose of the lights for determining times is not accomplished on day four and not before day four unless the lights did not exist until day four. If they had existed before day four their “purpose” of determining times would already have been fashioned and accomplished, before day four, because whatever the length of the day happened to have been, the lights would have signalled the times according to that length. And indeed there were already evenings and mornings before day four, regardless of how long the day was. The time between evening and morning cannot be several days of the time.

Gary Driver wrote: “History of the empires affirms the duration of the evening and morning lasted over a thousand years.”

This is false. There was not only one evening and morning within the several years of the historical period. In any case, in Genesis it is clearly stated that each pair of evening and morning constitutes only a single day. A day may be like a thousand years in another context of lying symbolism, but not here in this part of Genesis because it is clearly stated that it is a single day.

Look, the work before the fourth day could not have excluded the indication of times, because well before the fourth day is mentioned the passing of evenings, mornings and days. So it is plain that the purpose of the lights for measuring time was not what was exclusively accomplished in day four because that had already been accomplished, and this proves that according to what is written the intended meaning must have been that the lights must rather have been created in day four, just as is written there. Of course, this is all a paradox belonging to the Bible. You cannot make it true without saying that part of it is untrue, which is indeed what you have done.

My original writing

My original writing references the days of Genesis to the eons of Earth’s history. Each eon is millions of years in length. It appears your perspective of the days of Genesis represents 24 hours. The assessment I infer on day four results from millions of years in which the Earth’s rotation can slow and the Sun’s illumination to increase. 

 

DavidK wrote: “And indeed there were already evenings and mornings before day four, regardless of how long the day was”. “There could not have been evenings and mornings if the Sun had not already existed with the effect of allowing days to be recognized.” “The lights would have already determined the divisions of time such as days and years if they existed before the fourth day.”

Correct relative to the fourth day, evenings and mornings suggest the light was created before day four. Light did exist before day four to identify day and night. Therefore, the Sun was not needed to making on day four.

 

DavidK wrote: “If the lights had already existed, then where would they have been?”

The Bible tells us in the book of Job where the lights were before the Sun was born on day one (Hadean eon). According to Job, God laid the foundations of the Earth when the morning stars were singing. Job 38:4-7, Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the Earth? Declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? Therefore, the foundations of the Earth were laid while the stars sang (shine) together. Genesis 1:2 declares Earth was without form and void; it was not large enough for gravity to form it into the spherical shape we see today. And darkness was on the face of the deep, no shining Sun. The Bible and scientific observations indicate that other stars had already developed before our Sun shone and sang. Shining stars have all been proven to be singing stars that have spawned the field of asteroseismology. https://exoplanets.nasa.gov/news/1516/symphony-of-stars-the-science-of-s... and other references is why I believe the biblical creation account is true to reality because it is affirmed in detail by observation and research of science.

Bishop Driver

Genesis lights

Gary Driver wrote: “It appears your perspective of the days of Genesis represents 24 hours.”

I had until now never mentioned the number of hours in the day of Genesis. You should probably give up trying to interpret anything, either for yourself or for anyone else, such is your likelihood of reaching the wrong conclusion and imputing statements that were never present in the original source. Despite my statement that the exact duration of a day is irrelevant to the argument, which solely concerns the plausibility of the sequence of events according to the order of the days and the work done in them, you keep asserting that a day in the first chapter of Genesis is far longer than a solar day on Earth, with the implication of one day containing many mornings and evenings. Doing so does nothing to dispell any potential paradox but only adds another contradiction that did not inherently exist in the book of Genesis according to how it was written. 

In fact, in Exodus chapter 31 is written: “Work is to be done for six days, but the seventh day must be a day of complete rest [...] the sabbath is a sign for ever, since in six days [God] made the heavens and the Earth, but on the seventh day he rested and drew breath.” This equates a solar day on Earth to a day of creation in Genesis. If a day of Genesis had been millions of years long, then people should have been ordered to take a sabbath for millions of years, which is obviously absurd.

What Genesis says is “God called light day and darkness night”. This means that “day” is a period of light, which lasts from morming to evening, not from evening to evening as some other book might state, and not from morning to morning; neither is it from midnight to midnight of the modern reckoning; nor for that matter from midday to midday. The implication is that God worked only during daylight hours. The first command was for light to turn on, and so the rest of creation could not have been done without the prior existence of light.

In order for a distinction between day and night delineated by mornings and evenings, there has to be a temporal shift in the distribution of light. If this is by the light being directional relative to Earth in motion, then the light must be concentrated in some source, and the concentration in such a source insofar as it is radiative from a position is what would be regarded as a sun.

Gary Driver wrote: “DavidK wrote: [...] There could not have been evenings and mornings if the Sun had not already existed with the effect of allowing days to be recognized.”

Sometimes a statement by me is on my interpretation of what Genesis meant but another time it could be my interpretation of what is required by the prevailing scientific view that appears to be what you adopt in your view of Genesis. They do not necessarily represent my own views of reality.

According to the book of Revelation: “It will never be night again and they will not need lamplight or sunlight, because the Lord God will be shining on them.” This implies that there did not need to be a sun in order for there to be light before the fourth day in Genesis. God itself may have been the light, which turned on when work began at the start of the day and was switched off when God paused working.

Gary Driver wrote: “Job 38:4-7, Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the Earth? [...] who laid the corner stone thereof; when the morning stars sang together,”

The book of Job is written with poetic language. The Earth is being compared to a building with a corner block on its ground plan. But the Earth does not have corners like that, it is not flat and it is a round globe. Similarly, the singing of the stars most probably is poetic language, which you seem at first to agree with by glossing this with “shine”:

Gary Driver wrote: “the foundations of the Earth were laid while the stars sang (shine) together.”

But then you seem to go against this poetic glossing and read it literally:

Gary Driver wrote: “Shining stars have all been proven to be singing stars that have spawned the field of asteroseismology.”

Of course, any sound made within a star could not be heard beyond it because there is no medium of air in the intervening vacuum of space to transmit it. Secondly, the sounds made by different stars would not be in concert with each other but would most likely form a horrible noise rather than harmonious “sung” notes. And of course, only a vocal tract can sing, and notes produced by other mechanical means are not in the strict sense “sung”. So “sung” is poetic language in any case and we might as well assume that they did not sing, because they don’t and can’t.

But now you are claiming that the stars, along with the Sun, also were not created on the fourth day, but existed before the Earth was made. So what was the work done on the fourth day, since we have established that according to your view the Sun and stars already existed and indicated times before the fourth day? Your assertion about the Sun changing its brightness from “70%” and thereby fulfilling its purpose of indicating times is ludicrous. It is impossible for a light to be bright enough to show day while being at the same time not bright enough to indicate times on Earth.

If poetry matches reality, is

If poetry matches reality, is it real? Yes. 

DavidK wrote, “Similarly, the singing of the stars most probably is poetic language, which you seem at first to agree with by glossing this with “shine.” 

Stellar nucleosynthesis causes the sun to shine and sing; if it is not glowing, it will not sing. All the scriptural references that I have made matches the reality observation, research, and history, which affirms the word of God is real poetry or not.

Bishop Driver

The reference to light on day

Gary Driver wrote: “God also declared to ‘let there be a firmament in verse six and then declared he ‘made the firmament’ in verse seven. There is no contradiction there either.”

Of course there is no contradiction, who would suggest such a thing since the two lines appear in the same day? The question was on what was created in day four. This has nothing to do with the firmament of day two.

The question is what was made on day four. You have not provided a statement of anything that was made on day four except the making of a statement about the things that were actually made on day four. So was day four a day of rest, like the Sabbath?

 

Even the Creator can make a mistake

Sorry I am a bit late to this discussion - my broadband has been down for days…
As a storyteller (a Traditional Oral Storyteller) I know that all stories are true - they just might not have actually happened.
I love Creation Stories - and my current favourite is one from Romania, called Small Creatures - so, please, let me tell you a story…. 
https://youtu.be/nirDWzICVKo
Jill Lamede
TintagelStoryteller.com 

Sent from my iPad