Skeleton of a giant found in Romania.

Exposing the Secret History of Giants and the Underground Hyperborean Gallery in Romania

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vSkyline of Buzaului Mountain.

Skyline of Buzaului Mountain. ( Public Domain )

Knowing the local legends, people from the area immediately thought about the tartars. One of these legends even claims that the mountain formation known as the “Pillars of Tainita” (“Stalpii Tainitei”) had actually been built by these giants of old. In the past, the giants were also credited for building two large underground halls somewhere beneath the mountain.

The strange formation which can be seen up on Tainita Mountain resembles a set of stone chairs. As they are found at high altitude and in a highly inaccessible area, locals claim that tartars built the chairs to sit on when they wanted to gather for council.

Artistic representation of a Romanian giant.

Artistic representation of a Romanian giant. ( The Incredibly Long Journey )

Another legend from Hateg Country (“Tara Hategului”), tells the tale of two giantesses who built two cities: one in Deva and the other on the peak of the Severed Mountain (“Muntele Retezat”) respectively. Upon the end of the construction, when the giantess from Deva beheld her rival’s city and saw it had turned out more beautiful, she became envious. In a moment of rage, she threw a plough towards the mountain citadel - destroying it and severing the top of the mountain at the same time. In this way, the mountain earned its name, being known ever since as the Severed Mountain.

The Retezat Mountains seen from atop one of them (Vârfu Mare, "The Big Peak").

The Retezat Mountains seen from atop one of them (Vârfu Mare, "The Big Peak"). ( Public Domain )

In regions such as Teleorman, Giurgiu, and southern Muntenia, giants are known as “jidovs” (“jidovi”). A local legend speaks about a hero going by the name of Novac who fought a jidov. Once the giant was defeated, he ran away to save his life, but in his flight he left a mark on the ground. The area has been called “Brazda lui Novac” ever since. In the region there are also other formations called “maguri” by locals who believe that these have been built by giants.

Giant Discoveries in Romania

A number of archaeological discoveries have been made in Giurgiu. For example, it was found that in Argedava, King Burebista had his first city (before he unified the Dacian tribes of the area). Yet, an even more interesting discovery was made between the years 1940 and 1950. In this period, archaeologists unearthed 80 humanoid skeletons which appeared to be giants. The huge skeletons measured about four to five meters (13-16 feet) in height.

Giant skeletons have been unearthed in other parts of the country as well. As one example, in October 1989, 20 giant skeletons were found in Pantelimon – Lebada.

A sculpture of a giant’s leg in Corbii din Piatra, Romania.

A sculpture of a giant’s leg in Corbii din Piatra, Romania. ( Nicubunu/CC BY SA 3.0 )

Other such discoveries have been unearthed at Polovragi, at Cetateni, beneath Negru Voda Monastery, and in the Bucegi Mountains - where the existence of a network of underground tunnels surprised workers.

Secrets within the Bucegi Mountains

Secrets within the Bucegi Mountains (

Thus, skeletons of giants have been discovered in many places around Romania. To get straight to the point, giants have been discovered in: Scaieni in Buzau County, Mariuta in Calarasi County, Persani Mountains, Polovragi, Piatra Craiului, Tara Hategului, Cetateni beneath Negru Voda Monastery, and in many other places.

In Maramures, the Fortress of Oncesti (“Cetatea de la Oncesti”) was believed to be the home of the giants. At Argedava, giants with a height of over five meters (16 feet) have been discovered in 80 graves. Although most are suddenly “lost” after being discovered, the secret Romanian giants continue to be unearthed.

Featured image: Skeleton of a giant found in Romania. (

By Valda Roric


Valda Roric – “Supernatural in the Land of Count Dracula”
“Paranormal”, L.V.B. Publishing
Rene Louis – “Dictionary of Mysteries”


You know, I come to this site because it is one of the few sites that approaches Archaeology in a professional manner. But between Giants and Anti-matter Entities I think it's time I moved on. I'd go to Message from Eagle if I wanted woo.

Jack, I can understand that you might be put off on this topic, but there are plenty of other things on this site to read about. No one is forcing you to read, or believe in this particular subject.

That being said, there are too many stories, accounts and/or pictures from the past that point to this being factual. As the saying goes, 'History is made by those who have conquered. There seems to be a concerted effort to keep evidence of this from the publics eye. This, coupled with the lack of interest by the masses, makes it far easier to cover up, and never come to light.

Then, when you only see it come out on the History channel as a show, or on here in articles, it becomes much less credible. It is either the Museum of Natural History or the Smithsonian, (I cannot remember which) who have had the bones, and they have mysteriously disappeared. Scientists have come forward in the past, and have said as much.

I am not saying that there isn't a chance this is a false or faked story, but there is too much evidence to dismiss it completely.

He believe, he knows that is real, true, but he want to seed doubt on the minds of the people who comes to read, to investigate some of the past history of our planet, because they are curious of all those things that are being discovered and some organizations and some people want those things to be hide from the general public. Their reason? Who knows...

the answer is simple . read the biblical account,genesis 6,4.this started long ago.why does the smithsonian want to cover it up or deny them because that would mess up there evolution millions of years theory and you believe you came from a monkey.

Once you bring the bible or any mention of the sky fairy into the conversation it negates your argument, now I have a question for you,which do you think is more likely that we evolved from the apes or the sky fairy made us????

Bronzesnake's picture

Ya, that’s almost as rediculous as “nothing” exploding without causality, and becoming time, space, and matter.

Smart people like you don’t believe in that nonsense I hope!

Hey, it could be worse, just imagine someone believing all that nonsense, then he also believed that life created it self !! No way!!

Seriously now. I don’t enjoy belittlingt people because they believe in foolish things like that, so maybe you should turn the heat down a few notches also. It’s not as thought there’s ANY real scientific fact in any of that. It’s all supposition based on personal pardigm.

There’s this fgalse narrative going around and around that all this big bang and abiogenesis has been all nicely worked out with real scientific methodology  and it’s all proven scientific fact. It is not. It’s faith based, exactly like the “sky daddy” or whatever variation you enjoy beating others with the the most.

 I mean you would have to explain how a cell could form without pre programmed, fully functioning  DNA right? And just think about that for a would need to be specifically PRE programed –  now that presents a very serious problem, obvious reasons aside – PRE programming infers specificity – PRE knowledge. 

And, in order to get Pre programmed DNA you would need a fully formed, fully functioning cell with DNA already pre programmed and operating, otherwise, no DNA!

Being sarcastic of other people’s faith doesn’t make you look any smarter.

Why can’t adults be adult in this area? Nobody has anything conclusive, and so logically that leave all possibilities, even those we feel are rediculous.

This is the reason I’ve stayed away from the debate. People can be really sarcastic, and that just doesn’t belongt in any mutually respectful, adult discussion, regardless of hoe strong anyone’s personal feelings are.


I haven’t posted here for months because of this foolishness, and I am just as guilty! I never start of with sarcasm, but unfortunatly I do sometimes react in kind, and I don’t feel good about that, and so I stay away. 

Is this what A.O. wants this potentially great forum to melt down to?




Hi Jack just read your post, I don't believe in the Big Bang Myth either I think it's even less believable than the sky fairy myth, I do however believe that there was a race of giants somewhere back in time and the reason is simple to me, if you look back at animals and plants there was clear evidence that there was giant versions of them and so why not Humans, I do tend to be sarcastic with people who jump into conversations with the sky fairy and that's because It actually amazes me that in the 21st century people still believe in it. and if you ask them about all the badness in the world it's the devil, I have asked several "Believers" why would such a loving good and holy god create a world in which for anything to live something else has to die? and got some amount of hate mail and was reported to AO admin over it. the way I look at it is this, say we are having a serious discussion about science or nature and I came out with "Oh I know it's true cause Micky Mouse told me" what would your response be to me or would you take me serious

Bronzesnake's picture

Here’s a helpful hint which you can use anytime you consider setting mickey mouse comparrisons against reality.


How many book, scientists, historians, Biblical scholars, or regular people have ever claimed “Mickey Mouse” created the universe?


It’s a pretty big waste of time using such disengenuous examples, especially ones which can be turned around and used on you!!


That’s why so many intillegent Christians become sarcastic from time to time.


 I do tend to be sarcastic with people who jump into conversations with the non existant evolutionary sky fairy, and that's because It actually amazes me that in the 21st century people still believe in it.

And if you ask them to show you all the scientific observable proof they have for their non existant evolutionary sky fairy explanation, they say foolish things such as “D’ahhh can’t you see all the different kinds of dogs? or any number of equally foolish examples.

Ihave asked several "Believers" why would such a loving good and holy god create a world in which for anything to live something else has to die?

Gee, let’s see I ask inflamatary, loaded questions of which I will never take them seriously, then people become aggrevated at me...hmmmI wonder whay that might be?


If you had have ever read God’s book you wouldn’t need to ask silly questions because you would have known that the universe and earth, all life etc, was NOT created as it presently is. As a matter of fact, it was created perfectly as were we. Then people decided they didn’t need God anymore...come to think of it, that would be people like you Michael, but I difress.


So, God told them “hey, if you think you can do a better job than me...GOD, then so be it. Get out of the perfect home I created for you ingrates and let’s see how the world fares with man in control.

How are we doing so far Michael? See how being ill informed and refusing to listen, or read God’s word leads?


Michael said – “the way I look at it is this, say we are having a serious discussion about science or nature “

Michael, when you say “serious” what you actually mean is “serious” = Things that Michael believes”

Evolutionary explanations don’t add up. That’s why more and more evpolution scientists are risking their careers and reputations, and are admitting publically that it is effectively dead. There is always going to be a last ditch effort by the few dinosaurs who have invested everything in this godless silly explanation, and would rather live in a state of denial and go down with the ship, than accept the only explanation left.


Take care Mike.

"Gee, let’s see I ask inflamatary, loaded questions of which I will never take them seriously, then people become aggrevated at me...hmmmI wonder whay that might be?" WELL done you just proved what I said, instead of answering the question you call it an inflammatory and loaded question that you will never take seriously, and as for the Mickey Mouse well that's just as believable as the sky fairy, now let me just inform you of how I reached my opinion Jack, I was an avid believer and went to worship EVERY Sunday and I did actually read the bible but I could never make any sense out of it and then when I was about twelve or thirteen both my mother and me were mown down by a driver right outside the church, now here's another question you might never have asked yourself, but it just popped up in my mind, when God made the world whose rules was he working under that stated things had to be the way they are, and if he knows everything that has been and will be just why did he put the tree in the garden if he knew what was going to happen, and finally if you believe in God and it makes you happy that's super but as for me if it doesn't make sense to me I just won't believe it.

Sorry for your awful experience, Michael.
If a rich man marries a woman and gives her everything she would ever need, it may occur to him that she only like him because of what he gave her. So he says here's a million dollars you can have but only if you leave. Then, he would know her true feelings.. And she would truly have a choice.

If you are open minded and WANT to discover the real truth, then go to and check out the other side of the discussion/argument. Then at least you can make an informed decision. Otherwise quit cutting down people and making them sound like fouls just because they don't believe what you believe.

Dear Jack,

I agree with you! Myths stem from actual occurrences, although as the stories pass from generation to generation, the myths become exaggerated. Nevertheless, there have been many discoveries/archaeological finds that do get "swept under the rug", so to speak. What interests me the most is the fact that someone would try to hide truth rather than confirm what most people already believe.

Don, here is a book that will document hundreds of excavated giant skeletons in the USA.Anyone seriously trying to understand this book cannot deny the existence of Giants world wide. To deny the facts even the documentation in this book would be a sign of total disregard for facts over ones stubborn beliefs.

I'm very sad to tell you that there is no evidence. The picture is fake, the quotes are fantasy. The persons cited there never existed. I'm impressed by your trust in this story. It is pure fairy tale and for Romanians it is just funny. I have worked for many years with archaeologists in that place.

In light of voluminous evidence of larger than average humans from all over the world, I am afraid that I don't really understand how a topic like this can be so far outside of someone's comfort zone that they are motivated to formulate a disparaging post in response.

I salute AO on their very even-handed examinations of archaeological discoveries which do not fit into the dreary little world of mainstream dogma.


It's difficult, perhaps impossible, for some people to accept the truth when it comes to giant skeletons. A great example is the unexplainable existence of DNA. It's statistically impossible for DNA to have randomly evolved over 13.7 billion years - the current estimate of the age of the Universe. Frick himself admitted that it was an impossibility. But to accept that fact would overturn science's evolutionary timescale. How therefore to resolve this without admitting to an intelligent creator?

Scientists have come up with the ludicrous idea of panspermia! For them, it's easier to believe that aliens designed DNA and somehow deposited on Earth than it is to accept the alternative. Jack Dunfey is one of those people who doesn't dare abandon the belief of the herd of sheep that he belongs to.

Paul in Romans connects observing Creation, which all people see, as revealing God’s unseen character—the all-powerful Deity. Cf. Old Testament parallel to these verses is Psalm 19:1-6. (A cosmic code which nobody can erase!) Also, Psalm 8:1-4 and Psalm 148.
Paul’s conclusion to this description of natural revelation is important—all men are without excuse. The witness to God in nature is so clear and so constant that ignoring it is indefensible. Their condemnation is based not on their rejecting Christ of whom they have not heard, but on their sinning against the light they do have.
It is significant that our society militantly insists on teaching our young people bad science to perpetuate the myth of spontaneous biogenesis, etc., which is the basis of our philosophy, psychology, political theories, and our culture.

From Chuck Misslers study on the book of Romans.
Michael Denton, Evolution A Theory in Crisis, Adler and Adler, Bethesda MD,
Michael J. Behe, Darwin’s Black Box, Simon and Schuster, New York NY, 1996.
Phillip E. Johnson, Darwin on Trial, InterVarsity Press, Downers Grove IL, 1993.
Roger Penrose, The Road to Reality, Knopf, 2005.
Frank J. Tipler, The Physics of Immortality, Doubleday, NY, 2000; The Physics of
Christianity, Doubleday, NY, 2007.
Guillerno Gonsolez & Jay W. Richards, The Privileged Planet, 2004

No one claims that DNA has evolved over 13+ billion years. That is when the earth itself came into being. Life didn't appear until a little over 4 billion years ago.

Who says? Prove it!!

Many things are unexplained/unexplainable. That doesn't automatically mean by default that a magic invisible, all powerful spirit in the sky made them, that is Bronze Age thinking. There is more real evidence for aliens than there is for the Supergod. Humans have a great deal of trouble admitting to themselves, and saying, 'We don't know', especially 'educated' folks. If the DNA researchers are correct that our DNA has 'knowledge switches', and correct when they say some of them are "turned off", we don't know, and can't now. What we do know is that we don't know everything about DNA yet, so some of what we know now, may change. What I can say in favor of the scientific discipline is that they continue the pursuit of knowledge, unlike those who rest upon the unfounded claims of religion. As for my 60 some years of trying to learn, I have learned that the more I find out, the more I find out which I don't know. It seems that for every question I find an answer for, four or more questions pop up that need to be answered. Truth is a word I have necessarily eliminated from my vocabulary. Learning how to examine evidence has been a huge boon in advancing knowledge.

No not easier just more logical, and before you cast me into hell let me ask you a question, what kind of "all merciful" god would create a universe where in order for something to live something else has to die??

Hi Michael,

You are absolutely right. I'm not sure whether or not you really want to know the answer, but I can at least try and give a response. I hope and ask that you please not belittle, tease, or mock me and I will do my best to have the same respect for your beliefs. We all disagree on some things, whether it be minor or major or 1 or many things. None of us have all the answers and that is likely something that will never be the case. There are things in this world that confound us and don't seem logical, even in the world of science. For example quantum entanglement is not fully understood, and may never be, but it nonetheless makes no natural logical sense, even if we can explain it with probabilistic mathematics and physics. However, we must not automatically assume that because one believes in God that they are ridiculous and illogical. The same things that satisfy you and are evidence for you, may not be the same for someone else. This makes us different no doubt, but no less or more logical.

(excuse my ignorance, but I will speak with the assumption that He is real, since that is what I believe, however I respect your belief in that He is not to you).
When it comes to your question here, there are many things to consider, but one must first understand that God is not simply "all merciful". God is also "the judge of all the earth", "the king of all", etc. Mercy can be defined as being lenient when the situation calls for something stronger. For example if one is convicted of a crime, the law may call for you to go to jail for 10 years, but if the judge lowers that to 10 months, he was being merciful. When God created the universe, He created it perfectly. It was not created in such a way that someone has to die for someone else to live, nor does it operate that way even after the imperfection was introduced into the world. Since God is infinite and eternal, any offense to him if judged fairly would require an infinite punishment. Consider this, if someone steals from you, the fairest punishment would be for them to either 1)return what they took in the same condition as when it left, or 2)buy another item just like it, or 3)pay the cost of the item. Since every aspect of God is infinite in extent, then the fairest judgment for an offense to Him is also infinite in extent. This is why when one offends God they are required to die. However, God didn't want things to just end that way, so He showed mercy and provided a way for people to not have to face that punishment, but still fulfilling his requirement of justice. This is reason for Christ and why God is considered merciful. God requires justice, because He is the judge and He can't be unfair, but He is also loving and wants to prevent death from being the end of it concerning people, so He was merciful and found a way to fulfill both justice and love, by taking the punishment on Himself, for only God can take God's punishment and still be around. Now the only requirement is accepting the payment He offered for you, just as if someone wants to free you from jail, you have to accept it otherwise you can tell them you don't want it and to get lost and you stay in jail. The salvation that Christ offers frees us from the infinite consequence that death originally would have had. This is why God is considered to be merciful. Let me know if that answers your question and if not, let me know what it is you do not understand and I will try my best to answer.

Hi Humbleanswers,
I will not belittle you in this reply but you didn't get what I was saying in my comment, I wasn't just talking about mankind and crime I was talking about everything on the planet. and see if you can answer this question too when "god" created the universe whose rules was he/she/it working under, who said things have to be the way they are and when I said "more logical" what I ment was if it doesn't make sense to me I just won't believe it oh and I don't believe in the "big bang" either.

Hi Michael,
Thanks for your respect. I am sorry I misunderstood your question, i'll try again to explain as best I can. Again I don't have all the answers, as none of us do. When it comes to creating the universe, God created the universe in accordance with His design, His rules, and His Authority. If no one else is around, and He is all there is, then by default He is the one who has all authority and therefore He makes the rules. Many believe that evil is doing what we conceive as doing wrong or hurtful to another person, but in fact evil is not being in agreement with God. He has decided what is right and anything against that is wrong. Our very conception of right and wrong comes from God. Without there being an ultimate authority on right and wrong, where does our idea come from? Would it come from society, ourselves, nature? In any of these cases what would it matter whether what is right or wrong since it is all based on opinions of people and those ideas would end when they die. If there is no absolute for right and wrong, then all we should do is obey the law to keep your freedom and nothing else matters. But if there is an absolute for right and wrong it has to come from an absolute opinion, an absolute authority. Just imagine, if you created a program or game, let's say a first person shooter....whose rules is the game working under?...It is working under the rules of its creator. The same would go for the universe.

Regarding why things on the planet seem to be haywire or out of whack, it goes back to the beginning when sin and death first entered the world. As I said in my previous comments, God created the universe to be infinite in time, life to last forever, and all things to continue to exist perfectly for eternity. However, when humans brought evil into the creation, corruption of the original began to occur since perfection was now imperfect. Now God had a few choices on how to deal this state of creation. He could have 1)removed the evil (the people and any other corrupted thing), 2)He could've let it continue as it was (lasting forever with no death, but corrupted forever), or 3) He could've tried to save both the creation and the one who caused the evil by allowing the state to be temporary for both and then making them anew. Consider this, if you have a child and they do something wrong, would it be better to avoid discipline and allow them to think it's ok to continue the behavior or correct them and give them an opportunity to change the behavior. God chose the latter so that creation wouldn't remain corrupted forever. I hope that answers your question, but if not again, just let me know and I'll respond as best as I can. I understand you don't believe the big bang, but there are things that we observer experimentally with our eyes and we still don't understand it, it is not a matter of belief, but just lacks explanation. Quantum entanglement is one example, but I'm sure there is more. If you don't mind, I'm curious about your belief set as well, what do you believe about how things were created, where life comes from, and what is the most logical concerning the ways things are in the world?


Hi again,
I'm sorry but that makes no sense to me I asked you two questions and you answered neither.
1 what sort of god would make a universe where something has to die for something else to live.
2 when god made the world whose rules was he/she/it working under.

1 if god was so powerful and wonderful and perfect could he/she/it not have found a better way of feeding it's creation rather than something else has to die?

2 If god was working under his own rules he/she/it's a bit scary to think that he/she/it would themselves through watching only son go through such pain and suffering to make up for something he created himself, after all he created the world and everything in it. Sounds more like a nutjob than a god to me, and I could go on for ages with all the contradictions in the myth about god (ie) "thou shalt not covet thy neighbours wife" and then he impregnates a mans wife, I don't know if he had HER permission or not but I would guess not which makes it a violation of her body whatever way you look at it...

Hi Again,

I felt that I answered both questions already, but I understand if they are unacceptable to you.

1) God did not create the world this way, as I've explained corruption entered the creation and once that happened then things began to occur the way you see them today. But I'm curious, you seem to think death is wrong which is understandable, but where are you getting that from? Why is death wrong, in fact, what is right and what is wrong, especially since to you, no god exists? What would be your system of feeding?

2)Here I think is misunderstanding of what it means to be a creator. Imagine that the world is a video game, all people and creation is a part of the game. Then a playable character appears, that playable character can die and come back to life. In a similar way, Christ would be the playable character and God would be the one outside the game directing that character. It may not make sense why He would go through that to you, but if He knows He's the only one who can survive what's required, then it makes perfect sense that He would choose to go under it Himself instead of others. But there seems to be a misunderstanding of why this was even necessary, to which I felt I already answered as well. I also already answered the fact that God was working under His own design and His own rules...not sure what you're looking for here, but it is that simple. He has been around for eternity and is the only One who has and therefore His world, His rules. I'm sure you'd say the same thing if someone was in your house telling you what to do, your house, your rules.

Concerning the virgin birth, I think there is again, some misunderstanding of what it means to be creator and One who has ultimate authority over all. In this event, God created a person and allowed them to enter the world by normal means, aka birth. You fail to understand that this was considered an honor amongst all people, but especially the Jews who were looking forward to the Messiah coming and so it was not a immoral act. Nothing sexual, covetous, or improper occurred, so again, nothing wrong. Even if these are not acceptable to you, consider the fact that since He is the creator, her body was in fact, no her own just as yours is not. His creation, His materials, His DNA, His world, His universe, etc. He has all authority and can do what He wants. Even though you probably don't care, i'll quote it anyways "But our God is in heaven; He does whatever He pleases" Psalm 115:3, is the best way to sum it up. This may make you feel uncomfortable or may even make you think things are more illogical, but however you think the world should be doesn't really mean it is more logical. But another thing you misunderstand is the fact that you yourself is not perfect. How can one who is imperfect/corrupt have a perfect understanding of what is perfect. Even your concept, logic, and understanding of what is perfect is flawed, and therefore you could never understand what God does, why He does it, etc. It will always be foolishness to you.

You also did not answer my questions, please feel free to tell me your belief/worldview on the following:
1)What do you believe concerning how the universe got here and how life got here
2)What is the most logical way things should work in this world according to you
3)What is the origin/source of right and wrong

Also, in case this is last time we exchange on this; thanks for corresponding back and forth, healthy discussions are good to have when both parties remain respectful. Thanks and enjoyed!

Hi Humbleanswers,I have to say you are a refreshing person to correspond with as you have not wanted to burn me at the stake like so many others have wanted to.
I was actually a believer in my youth (long long ago) lol and I have read the Bible,(I didn't study it so I couldn't quote from it) and wouldn't miss mass for love nor money it was vital to me but I think even then I had misgivings about things that didn't make sense to me.
As for the most important question of how we got here? I can only be honest if I tell you I don't know, I would LOVE to know but I don't, but evolution makes more sense to me, and as for what I believe to be right or wrong I think respect and decency for others is a good start. I think you are missing a crucial point when you ask me to imagine the world as a video game, who made that video game? and if as you say God made the world perfect then how could corruption enter the world? I don't believe in God but I don't believe in the big bang either because that makes no sense to me, so let me ask you to do what you asked me to do and try to look at the world as a non believer I think you might get a different answer to your questions.
now to your questions.
1 I don't know how life started on this planet or if there's life elsewhere in the universe.
2 I don't think there is much logic on this planet(ie) some people Grossly overweight and children starving to death, we have the power to eradicate hunger on this planet but just won't. we have Solar power, wave power,wind power and geothermal power yet we continue to pollute the earth with fossil fuels, solving these problems would be logical to me for a start.
3 I think common decency, respect,charity and Mercy most of all are right and pure greed such as you see in most leaders around the world is absolutely wrong.

Hi Michael,
Thanks for your kindness and once again your respect in the exchanges we have had. Thanks for telling me your beliefs and I must say I respect your honesty in these questions. Many atheist/agnostics usually attempt to answer these and some do surprisingly well, but in the end, none of really knows the answers to these questions. However I'll do as you asked me to do. I've actually been there before myself, however unlike you I did believe in the big-bang and evolution. However as an unbeliever there were some things that were pressing me even more. Here are 3 of them. 1)Mathematics states very clearly and logically that nothing can come from nothing. So you are left with 2 possibilities. a)There was something non-eternal and it made something else and that made something else, and this cycle continues for eternity. Or b)There was always something that always/infinitely existed, and things come from it or it made the other things. As a non-believer I am forced to believe that with either possibility here that the universe itself is eternal. That very well could be the case, but then that would make the universe a sort of non-personified god. 2)The second thing that perplexed me as a non-believer is the existence of life. Over time as I began to study things about life, evolution, etc. There is one fundamental issue that can't be answered. How did the first life get here. Evolution believes it has the answer but it does not, nor has it be proved that the way it says it started is the way it actually started. Much conjecture, but its hard to know since no one was there, so we have to play investigator. Law of Biogenesis says "life comes from life". But how does this work if there used to be no life? Information also plays a role in this. Firstly, where does information come from. As people we know it has to come from an intelligent agent as anything can turn into information. If I tell someone that this rock is a landmark and will let you know when to turn left, then that rock has now become information. Genetics has information and LOTS of it. Where does this information come from? Also when natural selection and speciation occurs in creatures, information is usually lost or shuffled, not gained, but in order for macro-evolution to occur, information has to be gained and this is not something that has yet been observed. For example a dog has less genetic information than a wolf. These are some of the dilemas I have faced as a non-believer and was forced to believe that either aliens brought life to earth or a god did. Combining this with the first issue, I am then forced to believe that either another alien brought that alien to life in which another alien brought the previous one to life in an eternal cycle, or once again an eternal god did. A third thing I faced as a non-believer is 3)what is the source of morality? As a non-believer I am taught that it arose as part of evolution and in some way became an evolutionary advantage to pass down morals so as to preserve populations and societies. I can see how that would be the case, but ultimately these ideas of right and wrong are just opinion if that is the case. Why should I be "good" at all except to stay out of prison or trouble with the government. Why does it matter to be nice, except to 'get mine' per se. As a non-believer I was forced to the logical conclusion that ultimately survival and my happiness alone is what mattered for the little bit of time I'm here and whatever else happens in between that doesn't matter, how it is achieved doesn't matter, and that somebody's perception of right and wrong is only their opinion. This also means what is the point of loving other people. I can like them for a temporary time to get what i want and then it doesn't matter. This didn't sit well with me for it would mean that selfishness, greed, etc. is not "wrong". People who see that, it is just their opinion, there is essentially no real right or wrong, only what we feel "should be done". It also meant death is not bad, it is just a part of life. But something feels wrong with death, not just for people, but for everything in the world, just doens't feel like it should be here. Why do i feel this way? Is it only a feeling and if so, seems evolution should have taught us a long time ago that this is good, it benefits the system. Feelings aside, there are other things in the world that just seem wrong outside of that, but again it must only be my opinion. Speaking with other folks helped me to realize there are universal rights and wrongs in people, including non-believers of any faith. Could we have been tampered with because of thousands of years of religious teaching? It's definitely possible, but nevertheless people appear to have some things agreed upon concerning right and wrong. Where does this right and wrong come from? Was it a)thought up by people for societal sake? b)suggested to us by an outside source or authority? One thing that i must say is consistent, is that people don't like rules, even though we do think they should exist. However in most cases, most people wouldn't come up with rules, an authority usually has to come up with them, and even then there needs to be an enforcer or accoutability to ensure the rules are enforced. In any case I must admit it is possible that people thought up right and wrong for evolutionary purposes, but I felt the better explanation was a higher moral authority came up with it due to the universality of right and wrong, and the fact that outside of a moral authority, right and wrong is just opinion. Eventually I became a believer in Christ as you know and many answers to the questions I had became available to me that I didn't think was possible. I hope that someday your questions can be answered to your liking as well.

Concerning the video game example, you asked me how did corruption enter a perfect creation? The simplest answer is free-will. I can elaborate and explain that essentially God wanted his creation in people to love Him, but He also wanted them to be intelligent. He could have easily made a creation without the possibility of evil, but then wouldn't he just have robots that couldn't love Him back? However with the creation of free-will, there leaves open the possibility for one to choose to go against what you say or suggest to them is right. With free-will one can choose to do things to the creation that were not intended. Could God prevent them from following through on their actions? Sure, but corruption would have already entered the person because of their choice and therefore corruption would have entered creation. You see, many question why does or why did God allow certain things to happen and it is fair. If He is so powerful, why didn't he....etc. This is perfectly fair, but would we have free-will to do as we please? God didn't want robots and mindless servants, He wanted beings who could love Him because they wanted to and could excercise their own choice. Unfortunately this also leaves the possibility that they wouldn't choose Him and wouldn't choose right, but He also knew this, but to Him the love of even just One is worth this possibility. And if you ever been in-love you can agree that the possibility of one loving back is worth the heartache of being dumped a few times, lol. In any case, when it comes to Christ He again chooses to respect your decision in not wanting to love Him. In fact, many people make God out to be so mean when they ask, why would a loving God make people go to hell? The simple answer is because they choose to. The difference between heaven and hell isn't one place is full of bliss and the other is full of torment. No people who go to be with God are in heaven because they have chosen to love Him and they want to be with Him, and since He is goodness, people are in a good place. Those who go to hell, have also chosen this, not because they want to suffer, no, it is because they said they don't want nothing to do with God and have chosen not to love Him. It is not a place where you are being tormented by a particular person, it is a place where you suffer because you realize you have missed out on the goodness of God because you didn't realize that life was as hard as it is without Him. The best explanation I can give you is a parent-child relationship. When a child becomes a teenager often times they feel they are grown when they are not there just yet. They may feel like they don't need their parents help to live the "good-life" lol. So the child may rebel and do whatever they want and if their old enough, the parent may let them know they can leave if they want to and see what life is like without them. Upon leaving the child realizes life sux out there without mom and dad, but during that time mom and dad have still been helping out from afar, providing essentials like water, clothes and little bit of money, but still they have to take care of themselves and work and do all these things. Some children may come back and realize they weren't yet ready to be out there on their own. Some children however will decide "o things aint that bad" and continue to rebel in which they get completely cut off and realize how much things really do suck. The one who comes back is like the one who believes in Christ and wants to love God. But the others are like the child who says "i don't need you". Could God force you to be with Him in heaven, sure, but why if that is not what you want. One may say "shouldn't God do everything to protect you from such a place?" Yes and He did by providing a way for us not to go there through Christ, but He is not going to force you there if you don't want to because again, the difference between heaven and hell is not an object of torment and an object of blessing, no it is in one place God is manifest there and the other place He is not. Hell is bad because you are that child who is missing out on that awesome party all the cool kids went to, lol.

In any case, thanks for the exchanges again. I hope you find your answers man, I really do. I'm sorry you had an awful experience, but I can say that religion will do that to so many people. But Christ doesn't care about your religion, he wants a relationship with you. If you don't believe me read the book of John where He make it clear to the pharisees(The religious folks at the time) that religion is not how you get closer to God. Faith, Love, and hope - pure relationship is what He wants from you. Believe in your heart and confess with your mouth and you shall be saved. Not by works, for none of us can live up to the perfection of God as so many religions try to make you do. No Christ was the perfection for us, so it is through Him we live and build a relationship with God. Then you can have life more abundantly, not necessarily in material things, but things like these answers you want in life will come. I would love to continue this exchange with you over email, but i'm not so sure i should put my email address on this comment/forum for the public lol. If there was a way i could send it to you privately I would. In any case, I hope you have a great weekend.


Thank You

I gotta say ... someone has a vivid imagination. Extraordinary beliefs require extraordinary proofs. There is, as always on this topic, absolutely no verifiable information in this article. If you want to be taken seriously (at least by me) produce some hard evidence.

Tsurugi's picture

Yeah? Who decides what is "extraordinary"?

We live within a universe that is in excess of 14,000,000,000 years old, on a planet that is about 4,000,000,000 years old, in a biosphere that has existed for up to 2,000,000,000 years; modern humans have been around for perhaps 250,000 years, though only 8,000 years of that is recorded history. Modern science has been around for 400 years or so, and current scientists have been here for 80-100 years tops, more like 40, on average.

So when they say "extraordinary", they base that on their experience of roughly %0.00032 of the sum total of humanity's period of existence, and about %0.00000004 of the timespan of life on earth.

A bit lacking in the credibility department in terms of being able to define what is or is not "extraordinary", don't you think?

Why does most people think that we "evolved", why is everything billions of years old? After all, Darwins theory of evolution was just THEORY!
I was taught that in school along with the creation. There is older books than Darwins explaining this.

Bronzesnake's picture

You ask a valid question Dave. Unfortunatly, most Americans have been indoctrinated in school by over zealous teachers/professors who blurred the lines of fact, and fiction in teaching the big bang, as well as the neo Darwinian theory as though hypothesis were “theory” and as though “theiry” was “scientific fact” Fortunatly, more and more scientists are finally admitting the entire theory, with cosmic evolution,  and biological evolution is based on nothing more than “just so stoties” and “trade secrets” such as a complete lack of any graduated transitionals in the fossil record.


Evolution scientists are abandoning shit at an alarming rate. Why?

okay you creationist answer me this, you continuously rubbish other peoples thought's and ideas as "Just Theories" okay well show me YOUR actual proof the sky fairy exists!

Tsurugi's picture

@Michael Stones

There's no proof. "Proof" is for mathematics and courtrooms. Science is a methodology for determining what is false, not what is true.

I respect a healthy skepticism of anyone claiming to have an absolute truth, be it creationism or whatever.
But having delved a bit into spiritual metaphysics and concepts of a "creator", as well as the complex and diverse mythology of Celtic and Gaelic fairy lore, I have a hard time taking seriously anyone who's knowledge of both is apparently so superficial and shallow that they think "sky fairy" is a witty derogatory term.

To me it demonstrates the person has no more than a child's understanding of both fairies and the concept of a creator.

Tsurugi's picture

I agree with your criticisms re: Darwinism, age of the Universe, etc., in the sense that we really don't know how old the Universe is, and the best estimates are based on a lot of assumptions that may not be true.

What I was attempting to illustrate was that it is their own preferred model of the Universe which implies that they can't possibly know what is or is not "likely".

The Bible plainly speaks of a race of people who were giants, the Philistines, in the recounting of David, in his youth, slaying Goliath in I Samuel chapter 17. Goliath's height is listed as "six cubits and a span". The measurement of a cubit is described as the distance from the elbow to the fingertips. Historically, this varied between different groups of people, from the Hebrew measurement of 17.45", to the Babylonians at 18.8", and the Egyptian at 20.6". The commonly accepted length today is 18". The length of a span is from the tip of the thumb to the tip of the little finger when the hand is outstretched, commonly accepted as 9".
Thus, Goliath would have been between 9.5' and 11' in height, depending upon which measurement was used for a cubit. Regardless of which was used, Goliath qualified as a giant person.
There are many historical and Biblical references to exceptionally tall peoples of ancient times, so why is there such a hullabaloo and/or disbelief over finding skeletons of "giants" from ancient times?
Do some research and discover where Romania fits into the historic landscape tapestry of ancient times, and where the giants of old are said to have resided.
On another point in the article: It is interesting to read the references about the bones "disappearing" after having been discovered, dug up and removed, seen by many, some bones being displayed, and their authenticity relatively uncontested?
Now, that is the mystery to me.

The bible is just the collected myths and legends of the desert cultures, sure some of it may also be based on actual events too - an oral history that was written down. It's really no different than Celtic or Norse myths and legends etc etc

There is one main difference, but no use mentioning Him, I don't expect. I would be curious to know if you have in fact read the Bible, and if you have, did you read it with an open mind, and were you open to the Divine Presence? The evidence of a Creator is all around. The belief does not require evidence. Not everything is Empirical. Faith, for example. Everyone has Faith in something. What is your Ultimate Concern. Mine is my Relationship with God and being open to the Divine Presence in my life. To dismiss the possibility so cavalierly is, it seems to me, ShortSighted.

Don't start preaching here Reverend, you and your beliefs are no different than any ancient Celt and his faith in Crom Dubh the father God or his belief in the tales of the Tuatha De Dannan or any Viking and his belief in Odin his father God and Valhalla where he goes after he dies. It's exactly the same thing. The bible is full of tales and beliefs that are mirrored in cultures far older than Judaism or Christianity, cultures and belief systems that you would no doubt dismiss as pagan.

The Dannan were real, an earlier people of Ireland and supposedly went underground as they were cheated out of their lands with the agreement they made with the invaders...they may have even fled to the Americas after they were defeated in battle. They may have also been of the peoples that gave rise to our later ideas of 'elves'. The bible does mention that the elder Gods, were the fallen 'angels, and that these are what we call demons today. Powers and principalities. Some may still be physically alive and not just spirit entities.

thank you, well said.
- a modern druid from northwest america.

Bronzesnake's picture

The Bible is not a book of myth and no matter how much you and your own ministers continue preaching the evolutionary fairy tales, they will never be anythng other than that.

In your world, it happened long ago and far away kids, you just ave to believe e, because I reference “real” scientists” who taught me that evolution happenes so slowly that we can’t actually observe it. Or, if you’re of the P.E. faith, change happened so fast we can’t see it. Amen.

Yeah it is, it's a book of myths, legends and semi historical tales, ideas and philosophies. It's the collected tales and beliefs of the people who wrote it. A lot of it has it's origins in ancient Sumer and Egypt. There are equivalent Gaelic collections for example, full of the same sorts of moral tales, genealogies, adages, blessings, histories both real and semi legendary etc etc. It's just that People don't take them as gospel so to speak. You and your fundamentalist, medieval and closed mindset Bronzesnake, would have your nearest equivalent these days in the backward Muslims of places like Afghanistan. I know you're going to reply to this with some more hocus pocus, mumbo jumbo, So I don't know why I'm bothering really. Though I do understand now why a more advanced alien civilisation would be unwilling to engage us humans directly until we had grown up a bit and embraced rational thought.

Bronzesnake's picture

Quote – A lot of it has it's origins in ancient Sumer and Egypt.”

Ya, I’ve heard all that baloney many times before, and it might fly with a majority of people, even Christians, who have not researched for themselves.

I have been researching this stuff for decades,a nd that will not fly with me.

Give me specofocs, and i’ll demolish anything you think you have anytime.

The days where you non believers can fake out the Christians are pretty mcuh over. We’re educated, we’ve done the YEARS of study and we know THE TRUTH. Those old tactics just won’t work anymore.

Show me specfics. any fool can blow-hard in generalities.



Amen= Egyptian god Amun Mish mash of wishful thinking mixed with infantile bondage of spiritual progress. Too sad. Wake up and smell the Gnosis. Respectfully-not. Dennis

As for the Bible being a collectioin of myths, it would be best to pay attention to those 'myths', which early archaeologists did and were able to discover previoiusly unknown cities because they did, Troy being one of their major finds. The bible is what survived, coming down to us though the ages, and origionating with the Sumerians, those who origionally settled the land after leaving Eden. Nowdays, with the old cuniform tablets being unearthed and translated, we can flesh out the pre-flood information that is so summarized and scanty in the Bible, and it makes for very interesting reading indeed.

For future discoveries, it is vital that even the most improbable tales not be thrown out but compaired with others, and the formerly sealed up underground ways reopened. With modern scanning technology more can be accomplished that in the past. OH, by the way, South African diamond and gold miners occasionaly run into extremely ancient mine tunnels and vent shafts...when they do, they do not explore them but seal them up.
Theres a reason for one wants to encounter and disturb possible underground inhabitants. Supposedly not just American Indians but also some miners / explorers have, and for the most part, keep details of the enterence locations to themselves.

goliath had 4 brothers.... thats why david picked five stones.... also later davids heros slew several other giants in the canaan valley.some of these were called kings and some had 6 fingers and toes and double rows of teeth.

Correct. One can visit South America and see giant skeletons the Smithsonian never got their fingers on. There are 150 years of numerous newspaper articles documenting the many discoveries of giant skeletons.... all over the USA. Science has always tried to stand against the Bible and an almighty creator. Discoveries are hidden, proof is hidden, scientific credentials lost when those few dare to speak the truth. The Rothschilds and their NWO luciferian agenda cannot come to fruition if the Bible is proven to be true. Hence the cabal controls it all for they write the rules and control the money. Sadly they try to keep us in their false matrix of lies and absurdities.

Skeletons that have disappeared, having been sealed up for "security" purposes;
Gold tombstones that disappeared into then-Soviet Russia and never resurfaced;
Dodgy camera angles that skew perspective...

Good grief, AO, you'll be telling us that Dark Matter really exists next!


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Myths & Legends

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